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Old 09-29-2018, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Dictators have that habit, but we are talking about not leaving a country on the brink of collapse.

Another dictator that took a country with massive problems and left it as a virtual failed state was Duvalier in Haiti. He and his son took a Haiti that had been progressing economically since the days of the US invasion and gutted out its entire economic base. By the time his son ‘Baby Doc’ left Haiti in the 80’s after taking as many millions as he could in cash from the country’s coffers to live the good life in southern France, Haiti was on the verge of total collapse. The only thing the prevented the country from collapsing completely was the lifeline created by the UN and the USA. Duvalier was not a socialist, but he was also not a capitalist because he expropriated and basically destroyed through mismanagement many large businesses.
There are plenty of examples of brutal right wing dictators in the region. I am sure the family of murdered and missing people in Chile would rather have their families alive. There is really no excuse, this didn't happen that long ago.
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Old 09-30-2018, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
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USA's inflation is 1000% since I was in school,
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:33 AM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 16 days ago)
 
5,187 posts, read 8,029,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
There are plenty of examples of brutal right wing dictators in the region. I am sure the family of murdered and missing people in Chile would rather have their families alive. There is really no excuse, this didn't happen that long ago.
I donīt know why you keep focusing on that in a topic where the focus is the overall well being left by any dictatorship.

With that said, I have yet to meet a single Chilean that wish their country to be in a similar development level as the rest of Latin America. Millions of Chileans live a more comfortable, healthier, and longer lives than the average Latin American. This includes those people that lost a loved one for engaging in pro-communist activities during Pinochetīs rule. As the old saying says: donīt judge people by what they say, judge them by what they do. In short, deeds trumps words.

Chile is really the complete opposite of Venezuela. Chile is the envy of Latin America while Venezuela is the nightmare.

There are major questions regarding if Chile will be able to maintain its prosperity. Ex-president Bachelet, who was of the more socialist persuasion, for the first time since Pinochetīs rule, placed the country in an uncomfortable situation.

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Old 09-30-2018, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
I donīt know why you keep focusing on that in a topic where the focus is the overall well being left by any dictatorship.
You brought up Pinochet. Please go back and reread your own post. From your post it is clear you and a far right. That's fine but Pinochet is not example to follow.





Quote:
With that said, I have yet to meet a single Chilean that wish their country to be in a similar development level as the rest of Latin America. Millions of Chileans live a more comfortable, healthier, and longer lives than the average Latin American. This includes those people that lost a loved one for engaging in pro-communist activities during Pinochetīs rule. As the old saying says:
That may be true. But if we compare it too other developed countries in North America, Western or Northern Europe it doesn't look so good. There are much better examples out there than Chile.



Quote:
Chile is really the complete opposite of Venezuela. Chile is the envy of Latin America while Venezuela is the nightmare.
Venezuela is a disaster but it is not the exactly the opposite of Chile. Venezuela is a disaster because of bad management and lets not forget the right has also done everything it can to sabotage the leftist government.


Quote:
donīt judge people by what they say, judge them by what they do. In short, deeds trumps words.
Indeed...

Racist right wingers set black chavista on fire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJgh6bJx0Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6b-4ikfAE
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Old 09-30-2018, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,827 posts, read 9,480,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Didn’t Chilean dictator Pinochet ran Chile in the name of neoliberal capitalism? He prevented Chile from going down the socialism route. Chile didn’t implode.
Chile under Pinochet had the same economic problems and swings that Argentina has had. In fact, since Pinochet, Chile has still gone through wild up/down swings. Right now they're in an upswing, so people want to migrate there. A short time in the past, they were in a downswing and people from other Latin American countries didn't want to migrate there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Dictators have that habit, but we are talking about not leaving a country on the brink of collapse.
This is virtually impossible to do unless you're an especially dumb or greedy leader. Most economies - whether capitalist or socialist or whatever - don't get to that point unless there's very poor management. Put Chavez and Maduro in a capitalist economy and they will drive it to brink of collapse in a few short years.

Last edited by 80skeys; 09-30-2018 at 11:17 AM..
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Old 09-30-2018, 07:57 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 16 days ago)
 
5,187 posts, read 8,029,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
You brought up Pinochet. Please go back and reread your own post. From your post it is clear you and a far right. That's fine but Pinochet is not example to follow.
Yes and I said that Pinochet left Chile in much better shape than Maduro will leave Venezuela.

You are the one the went on a tangent as if anyone here is saying that dictatorships are desirable. I donīt know why it bothers you that anyone would mention that an anti-communist dictator left his country in much better shape that what socialist dictator will leave Venezuela. This is simply an irrefutable fact.

Good thing I never mentioned that Pinochet rose to power in order to eliminate the socialist government of Allende. Had the socialist remain in power, Chile would had never developed how it did to become the shining star of Latin America. The economic and institutional base created by Pinochet is what made the Chilean miracle a reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis
That may be true. But if we compare it too other developed countries in North America, Western or Northern Europe it doesn't look so good. There are much better examples out there than Chile.
Not in Latin America. Chile is the closest thing to a developed country down there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis
Venezuela is a disaster but it is not the exactly the opposite of Chile. Venezuela is a disaster because of bad management and lets not forget the right has also done everything it can to sabotage the leftist government.
Last time I checked Chile is among the best managed countries in Latin America and Venezuela is the worst. If thatīs not the opposite, then the whole concept of opposite doesnīt exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Chile under Pinochet had the same economic problems and swings that Argentina has had. In fact, since Pinochet, Chile has still gone through wild up/down swings. Right now they're in an upswing, so people want to migrate there. A short time in the past, they were in a downswing and people from other Latin American countries didn't want to migrate there.
I think you are confusing Chile with Argentina. Chile is the Latin American country that has been closing at the fastest rate the gap in development with developed countries. After Chile comes Panama and Dominican Republic. Every other Latin American country is experimenting a growing gap with developed countries with Venezuela leading the pack at a ridiculous rate.

Countries donīt shrink development gaps with the rich world by having recurring crises. Argentina has been a yo-yo for much of the 20th century and during the current century, at the moment suffering yet another economic crisis. Thatīs the main reason Argentina is falling behind developed countries while Chile is catching up to developed countries. Argentina was so close to being developed and then it blew it by electing so many socialist inclined presidents. The current economic crisis is due in no small part to ex-president Cristina Kirchner and her socialist-based policies. Current president Macri is left with cleaning up the broken plates from her mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skey
This is virtually impossible to do unless you're an especially dumb or greedy leader. Most economies - whether capitalist or socialist or whatever - don't get to that point unless there's very poor management. Put Chavez and Maduro in a capitalist economy and they will drive it to brink of collapse in a few short years.
Care to explain why every country that turns to socialism eventually reverts back to capitalism? At one point most of humanity lived in socialist economies, yet after the 1980īs that ceased to be the case. Look at China, even they had to eat their socialist words and adopt capitalism simply to survive as a cohesive country. Itīs ironic that once China became capitalist the chronic famine that country was famous for basically ended.

Last edited by AntonioR; 09-30-2018 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,438,884 times
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[quote=AntonioR;53237977]
Quote:
Yes and I said that Pinochet left Chile in much better shape than Maduro will leave Venezuela.

You are the one the went on a tangent as if anyone here is saying that dictatorships are desirable. I donīt know why it bothers you that anyone would mention that an anti-communist dictator left his country in much better shape that what socialist dictator will leave Venezuela. This is simply an irrefutable fact.

Good thing I never mentioned that Pinochet rose to power in order to eliminate the socialist government of Allende. Had the socialist remain in power, Chile would had never developed how it did to become the shining star of Latin America. The economic and institutional base created by Pinochet is what made the Chilean miracle a reality.
Pinochet was a brutal dictator and derailed a democratically elected government, that is an irrefutable fact. Chile could have been developed with out all the blood shed. Chile is one of the better off countries in Latin America, still it could be better. Venezuela is in bad shape, we get it. But those slums around Caracas didn't pop up overnight. If we look close at Latin America countries that have problems with socialist and Communist groups usually had ****ty right wing governments and were extremely unequal to begin with.
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Old 09-30-2018, 11:21 PM
 
24,204 posts, read 17,598,750 times
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[quote=UrbanLuis;53238253]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post

Pinochet was a brutal dictator and derailed a democratically elected government, that is an irrefutable fact. Chile could have been developed with out all the blood shed. Chile is one of the better off countries in Latin America, still it could be better. Venezuela is in bad shape, we get it. But those slums around Caracas didn't pop up overnight. If we look close at Latin America countries that have problems with socialist and Communist groups usually had ****ty right wing governments and were extremely unequal to begin with.
Poverty in Latin America had nothing to do with "right" wing governments. During colonialism the brutality of the Spanish Inquisition discouraged intellectualism, innovation, etc as speaking out against the church could get you executed.

The Inquisition severely set back Portugal and Spain. But as a part of Europe, they had to make reforms to put them inline with other European nations. Major political and economic reforms.

Socialism could never save Venezuela. These days highly educated South Americans all get European citizenship (Spanish, Italian, German). In short those with money and with high levels of education have an escape hatch, leaving places like Venezuela without a professional class as the educated FLEE.

Any country that is doing reasonably well TODAY wants to attract wealthy people and educated people. The US and anywhere in the EU love to have investors, tourists, foreign students, etc.

Deranged fools like Maduro and Chavez frighten off Venezuela's own educated and wealthy and soon Venezuela will be reduced to a country where they don't know how to make light bulbs.
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Old 09-30-2018, 11:23 PM
 
24,204 posts, read 17,598,750 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Chile under Pinochet had the same economic problems and swings that Argentina has had. In fact, since Pinochet, Chile has still gone through wild up/down swings. Right now they're in an upswing, so people want to migrate there. A short time in the past, they were in a downswing and people from other Latin American countries didn't want to migrate there.

This is virtually impossible to do unless you're an especially dumb or greedy leader. Most economies - whether capitalist or socialist or whatever - don't get to that point unless there's very poor management. Put Chavez and Maduro in a capitalist economy and they will drive it to brink of collapse in a few short years.
Major capitalist nations have legislative and judicial branches that would not allow Chavez and Maduro to wreck the economy. Look at the US. Trump maybe a nutcase, but the separation of powers of government severely checks him.
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Old 10-01-2018, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,827 posts, read 9,480,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Yes and I said that Pinochet left Chile in much better shape than Maduro will leave Venezuela.
This says everything about their leadership skills, not their ideology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
I think you are confusing Chile with Argentina.
No. Chile's ups and downs have a lot to do with their mining industry, rather than with the way the country is managed. In fact, this tends to support the idea that they are not very well managed if their economy fluctuates in tandem with the price of metals.
Quote:
Care to explain why every country that turns to socialism eventually reverts back to capitalism?
Dictators. The failed states you can talk about, all had dictators at the helm, people whose only interest was to gather as much power
and wealth for themselves that they could at the expense of everyone else in the country.
There's examples of failed capitalist states as well. There's a lot more that goes into whether a country's economy survives or not
than whether it is capitalist or socialist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Major capitalist nations have legislative and judicial branches that would not allow Chavez and Maduro to wreck the economy.
Put those checks into place in a socialist country and you will also have a strong economy with a good standard of living for most people.
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