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Old 11-02-2018, 05:14 PM
 
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I don't know if building a wall is the smartest use of taxpayer funds. Maybe penalize all the Dominican employers that recruit illegal Haitian labor and work with the Haitian Government to stabilize the country/improve their economy???? Which is what the US should be doing with Mexico/Central America.
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Should the DR build a border wall to stop the illegal flow? No, there is no way to stop the flow.

Should the DR build a border wall to reduce the illegal flow? Yes, a wall would definitely help, especially if it is well built.

The biggest problems that affects Haiti and act as push factors for Haitians to emigrate are:

- A very low economic development level. Haiti isn´t just the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, in fact Haiti is so poor that most countries in Sub-Saharan Africa are in better economic shape (Sub-Saharan Africa is the least developed part of the world with perhaps Central Asia being comparable). To make matters worse is that the population has been growing faster than the economy for most of Haiti´s history and that is still the case.

- Widespread deforestation with the degradation of the top soil reaching catastrophic proportions in much of the country, especially along the hills and mountain sides. In a lot of areas the top soil has completely washed away and what is exposed is the rock bottom. In many areas of Haiti the mountains look brown, as if they were in a desert, and contrasts sharply with the greenery of the valleys. In itself is a beautiful scenery, but unlike in actual deserts where man creates the greenery in the valleys, in Haiti man created the desert-like mountains through mass deforestation. Top soil is needed to regenerate a forest or even to produce basic foodstuffs. Less than 1% of Haiti remains covered in the original tropical forest that once covered over 90% of the Haitian territory. Most rivers in Haiti have actually dried up. The most important river in Haiti is the Artibonite and that river has a constant supply of water and never dries up mostly because it starts in the Dominican Cordillera Central, in an inmense pine forest that is protected by a national park.

- Very high population density that is actually worse than the national average density indicates when is taken into account that roughly 10% of the country is made up of valleys and flat land. Most of the population is crammed into those thin valleys scattered in the interior and along the thin coastal lowlands. The largest valley in Haiti is the Artibonite.

- Archaic land ownership patterns favors the creation of small non-commercial farms. This land tenure practice was adopted from the very beginning of Haiti as an independent country. These farms are too small to produce enough surplus that could guarantee the farmers a decent livelihood, not to mention the extreme deforestation has affected the fertility of the land in many areas.

- Constant political and social instability. When things finally calms down it usually takes a few months for some natural disaster to wreck havoc again. The Haitian government is in itself very weak and basically survives from an international life support (most of the Haitian government revenues originate in international aid while only a small portion originates in taxes), but also institutions in Haiti are very weak.


I will write about the pull factors that leads Haitians to migrate in large numbers to the DR in another post when I have the time.
To finish up my original post, these are the pull factors that leads Haitians to migrate in large numbers to the DR (a phenomenon that started very lukewarm in the 1980's and has simply become a bigger with time; before then Haitian migration to the DR was small and mostly controlled, consisting overwhelmingly of season farm workers that enter the country with a limited time permit and went back to their country at the end of the permit).

- A fast growing Dominican economy that produces labor demands. Some sectors, such as agriculture and construction, the Haitian migrants displaced Dominicans due to their cheaper labor. This is one of the reasons why there are many Dominican construction workers in many islands of the Caribbean, yet in their home country Dominican construction workers are now a minority when as recent as the 1980's and much of the 1990's construction workers were mostly Dominican. Today Haitians make up an estimated 80% of all construction workers and a similar estimate applies to commercial farm workers.

- Easier access to free public health care. In Haiti the network of public hospitals is spotty and the quality is not very good, with hospitals often lacking basic medicines and enough beds for their patients. In the DR public hospitals are found in every city and town, with varying quality depending on the hospital but overall much better quality than in Haiti. Many pregnant Haitian women wait until the last month of their pregnancy to cross into the DR, where they know Dominican hospitals are prohibited from rejecting anyone needing emergency medical care. In quite a few hospitals Haitian births outnumber Dominican births, and often times Dominicans in need of a hospital bed have to lay on the ground because many of the beds that would had been available for them are occupied by Haitians. The association of Dominican doctors is constantly making public notices to the government that it needs to control the flow of Haitians crossing solely to use Dominican hospitals because this practice is severely straining the resources, often enough producing a decrease in the quality of the care for the Dominicans that pay the taxes which are used to fund these hospitals.

- Modernity is much more readily available in the DR. Haitians that arrive in the DR see things they have never seen in Haiti or perhaps only heard about. Things such as large bridges, tunnels, wide palm lined avenues, high-rises and skyscrapers, shopping malls, large modern supermarkets, four and six lane highways, a lot more middle class neighborhoods and less needy and smaller poor neighborhoods compared to the ones in Haiti. Dominican cities and towns are made up mostly by non-slum areas, while in Haiti the cities are made up mostly of slums and this is a difference that is noted by Haitian migrants too. All these things and more has a strong impression on the Haitians. The quality of the services is also much better in the DR than in Haiti. I also think seeing light-skin people and whites or Dominicans with light color eyes and such also impresses Haitians, at least when they first arrive in the DR. They definitely stare as if they can't believe what they are seeing and act timid if you approach them; this doesn't happen with Haitians that have been in the DR for a while. For many, if not most, of them never in their lives had they seen in person people that look like that. All of this probably add to the excitement of being in a place so different from where they are from. The difference in language must also have an impression on them.

- Just about anything that isn't imported is cheaper in the DR than in Haiti, including the food. The DR is one of just two Caribbean countries (the other one is Cuba) that is self-sufficient in food production, which is remarkable when we take into account that the country produces food for its 11 million people plus the additional 6 or 7 million tourists, and there is still much excess produce left to allow for exports. Wages are higher and material things are cheaper in the DR than in Haiti, and they are also much more readily available in the DR while in Haiti outside of Port-au-Prince the variety of things is much more limited. In Haiti even having money doesn't guarantee easy access to all the things necessary for a modern lifestyle, while in the DR all you need is money to live a modern lifestyle because its available in most places of the country.

These are the things I can think off the top of my head. Needless to say that once a Haitian has been in the DR and they go back to Haiti to visit their family, while in Haiti they probably tell their family the things they saw in the DR. This probably ignites the curiosity of especially the younger members and encourages them to attempt migrating to the DR too, even if it's simply to see with their own eyes the things and the types of people that they were told exists.

I think the biggest shock to the Haitians that recently arrive in the DR is to start to wonder Haiti isn't more like the DR in terms of development when both countries are on the same island. This Haitian guy says it best after visiting the DR. Notice that he speaks very good English, so perhaps he lives in the USA or lived in the USA for many years. Yet even him, after visiting the DR, can't understand why the two countries are so different despite they are on the same island.



The DR isn't even a fully developed country yet and the differences are striking. By the looks of how things are going, the gap is only getting bigger.

Last edited by AntonioR; 11-02-2018 at 08:19 PM..
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:43 PM
 
381 posts, read 192,647 times
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DR women are amongst the finest on Earth. Protect the resource at all costs.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,854 posts, read 2,519,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
You underestimate the resurgence of the Dominican economy. It´s gotten to the point where even Puerto Ricans are migrating there looking for opportunities.

Back in 2006 when unemployment was much higher, I couldn´t find a single Dominican swinging a sledgehammer to the sidewalk on the streets of Puerto Plata. The macheteros in the canefields were all Haitians too. If any Dominicans are upset with that, they can always jump right in and take advantage of such opportunities if need be.
Doesn’t change the fact that a number of Dominicans are in other nations illegally and have brought more crime and prostitution with them. In comparison with the Haitians, Haitians seem to work harder and bring less crime and prostitution.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:12 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,854 posts, read 2,519,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
I doubt you are Dominican as you claim, and if you are you havent lived in DR ever.
this is only another fake post to incite confrontation.
Hatians dont want to "reconquer by mass immigration" as you claim, they are just poor migrant workers.
The racism of this post is disgusting.
Agreed. I notice that Haitians tend to work hard and keep to themselves.
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Old 11-03-2018, 04:17 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,644 posts, read 1,792,536 times
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Nationalism is a rigid caste system, and people are assigned to their untouchable life status (nationality) at birth, nearly impossible to rise above. This global caste system was created and enforced by the Brahmins who were born with rich-nation passports -- me and you. It will always be here because it is in the best interests of me an you, who have the power to control such things in our favor. We build walls as we need them.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
I doubt you are Dominican as you claim, and if you are you havent lived in DR ever.
this is only another fake post to incite confrontation.
Hatians dont want to "reconquer by mass immigration" as you claim, they are just poor migrant workers.
The racism of this post is disgusting.
I am Dominican, born n raiced in the Bronx, both parents are from San Cristobol Dominican Republic. Now Im living back in DR with fmextended family. You sound dumb try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
I spent 4 weeks in the Cibao, and the racism towards Haitians disgusted me. Particulary ironic were the Dominicans who complained about how poorly they were treated while working without papers in Puerto Rico, only to turn around and tell me that Haitians were thieving monkeys who practiced voodoo (I kid you not). Funny how many don´t feel empathy, even when the shoe is on the other foot.

Listen, Haitians over there work hard, really hard. Even if they´ve been living there for generations, they´re essentially invisible and will forever be treated poorly and never afforded citizenship. I guess intermarriage with Dominicans is upward mobility, but many people also refuse to recognize that these mixed marriages are even a thing. What if your family could never get US Citizenship? Would that be ok with you?

I am against all xenophobia, period. So no, I think your idea sucks.

Also, don´t drop statistics on race. We all know Dominicans try to ¨lighten¨their own racial identity. Mestizos call themselves rubios, morenos call themselves indios and black Dominicans call themselves moreno. Put 80% of those folks on the average street corner in the US and they´ll be identified as black, much to their self-loathing horror. Cut it with the Trujillo complex, you can´t share the same island and treat each other like an alien species.
Dominicans are far more similar to Puerto Ricans than Haitians, so you make no sense.

Last edited by Smooveysmoove; 11-03-2018 at 02:39 PM..
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:36 PM
 
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I don't mind SOME Haitians coming over, cuz many of them are hardworking good people. But also many of them are criminals, they bring crime, disease, or they just abuse government services.

Now I know some of my own people do it too, but it's ok for Dominican native to abuse OUR own government services and do crime, not saying its a good thing, but this is our society and in every society and nation you have good people and bad people. But for outsiders to come here and try to do that, no buddy you got to be a good immigrant or go back. And i dont disagree with America doing that to some criminial Latinos, but thats another topic.

But like I said I don't mind SOME Haitians coming, but they are overflooding my country, it's like pouring water into a cup that's already all full, it's an overflow too much, the immigration policy of DR needs to be more strict, enforced, and controlled especially for Haitians being that we share a border with them and they are the most desperate to come here. A massive wall (about 200 feet high and real thick, with checkpoints for immigration, trade, military, and transnational highways) along the Haiti-DR border should do the trick, and should be built asap.
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Old 11-03-2018, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,017 posts, read 1,991,218 times
Reputation: 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooveysmoove View Post
I am Dominican, born n raiced in the Bronx, both parents are from San Cristobol Dominican Republic. Now Im living back in DR with fmextended family. You sound dumb try again.


Dominicans are far more similar to Puerto Ricans than Haitians, so you make no sense.
Yet they are often discriminated against when they move to PR. All I´m saying is try to have a little empathy, at least take some ownership of why so many people would risk their lives, put up with discrimination, work jobs that no one else wants. Your family most likely immigrated to the US for a better life, right? Haitians are no different. People tend to flee poverty or danger, it doesn´t matter where they come from.

Do you personally know any Haitians that live in the DR? I feel like once people make real connections with the ¨other¨, their minds can change really quickly. I have plenty of Venezuelan friends here in Colombia, ran with plenty of central americans in the States who didn´t know English and/or were undocumented. It serves the interests of bigots to dehumanize those who are different, and stoke the fears of the masses.
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Old 11-03-2018, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,710 posts, read 2,495,512 times
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I used to think African Americans had the biggest inferiority complexes when it came to race. Well now they have to share the top spot with Latin Americans...yes all of you, from Mexico, to Colombia to Brazil, I've never seen any other group of people in such denial of their roots. I've met people who would be considered Hispanic. Back home they are considered white, and would fight you for not calling them that here in the US. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, perhaps your original ancestor was from Spain or whatever, but then he was a real dog with jungle fever, he and his kids/grand kids must have been banging every Indian and African from then on because you sir don't look even remotely European lol

Then you have the Hispanic blacks. I'm from Nigeria originally, that's in west Africa for those who don't know. 100 per cent pure African. Yet I've met blacks from Colombia and brazil who are darker than me, with hair just as nappy, who insist that they are not black at all, but rather mixed Indian/European. The actress Zoe Saldana comes to mind. I remember there was an interview where she was asked what her heritage was. She proceeded to mention several European countries plus Indian. Not a mention of African at all. What is ironic is that she had not any problems accepting acting roles in which she plays African American women mind you. I guess money over ancestry.
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