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Old 11-04-2018, 03:53 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,899 posts, read 1,583,155 times
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To think Hispaniola has 22 million people already, undoubtedly there will be population and migration strains especially when one country has epically failed its people economically. Its a complicated issue for sure!
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Old 11-04-2018, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,208 posts, read 1,593,153 times
Reputation: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by upthere22 View Post
Most Haitians presidents come form he mulatto class, and they tend to be from the southern part of Haiti where the mulatto minority lives. Black Americans also have imperialist tendencies just as whites, explicitly when imposing their own vision of blackness disregarding local history and culture. Americans cultural myopic imposition of values and historical perspectives is not only a white thing.
Explain the highlighted if you will....ive actually agreed with some of your other points but wholeheartedley disagree with this. Are you trying to imply black americans apply the social construct of racism which they were subjected to to the racial relations of other countries with diaspora blacks? If so then you statement as I said is truly off base. How could black americans either project or enforce imperialist tendencies??
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,854 posts, read 2,519,737 times
Reputation: 2826
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarHero45 View Post
You should spread this news to the xenophobic South American countries like Chile and Colombia who have deported and mistreated many hard working Haitian immigrants.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nat...202589599.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...ssey-1.4307595

Colombians have a stereotype for committing crimes and getting into prostitution in most Latin American countries so they should treat Haitians and Venezuelans with more respect based on that understanding.
I’m dealing with the present discussion. We are discussing Dominicans and Haitians. On the island I live, the illegal Dominicans bring way more crime than the illegal Haitians.
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,208 posts, read 1,593,153 times
Reputation: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banilejo View Post
I'm a Dominican from the south(Bani) and I would consider all those people you posted as black, and they would all be called "moreno" or "negro" where I'm from. Everybody is mixed in DR but people who look predominately African are still seen as black in most parts of the country regardless of admixture. Where did people get this stupid idea that Afro-Dominicans are unaware of their African roots? Regardless of whether or not people embrace their blacker phenotypes, they're is still completely aware that they are black, and are reminded that they are black by being around lighter Dominicans.

Dominicans that look like this are obviously not going to be seen the same as the people posted above.









Well Trujillo is the one that started the BS. And to be clear, if one isnt embracing their heritage then they most likely dont know, or are willfully ignorant. The narrative that black dominicans deny their blackness wasnt created off the island...it was created on the island. Lets be honest with the facts yeah/ Im a black american who lives in Rio De Janeiro and there is more of an embracing of their "afro" heritage in Brazil than certain other places. I do admit that the "afro latino" movement is alive and very well...as it should be.
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:27 PM
 
19 posts, read 6,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
Well sir, I said I was done, but it seems like you really want an answer. I won´t take the aggressive tone you do though. This is supposed to be a discussion, and I´m going to make it like one.

I have lived in Latin America for almost 8 years, 2 years in Puerto Rico and 6 in Colombia, respectively. I know that the US is limited in their labelling of race, you are correct. And within these myopic classifications of race, many Dominicans (maybe not all the ones from the protest in the upscale neighborhood of Santo Domingo that you showed us) would be classified as black when they move to a place in the United States that isn´t used to the more descriptive latino racial labels.

You admit you've never lived in DR for any significant amount of time, and neither have you lived in any community in the USA with a large Dominican population. So you're pulling all your worthless anecdotes from where? Fill in the blank. None of the videos I posted show any upscale neighborhoods, for one, those videos are of public protests in different parts of the city. So you just assume they're in upscale areas because the people don't look African enough, and it doesn't go with your preconceived notions of this nation's demographics. I can show you many videos of rural working class areas throughout this country that are full of people who look whiter than those posted above. There's no region or area in DR where the people are 80% black, except for Haitian Batey slums. Now the problems with your racial classifications is that they're stupid and incoherent, and seem to be more politically based rather than scientifically or genetically based. In your country people thought a white anglo woman like Rachel Dolezal was a black woman, it's really comical, you have the most messed up racial classifications, yet you want to criticize our way of viewing race. In DR if you look black, you're black, and if you look mixed, you're mixed; plain and simple.

Now here are some videos of Dominicans living in the USA. Let's say if Dominicans like this below where to say the "N WORD", would blacks take an issue with that, or would they say " oh, they're just black like us". lol I've seen African-Americans complaining about this rapper called Cardi B appropriating their sub-culture, and some of them have even said she's a light-skin Latina, even though she's brown. So obviously most blacks in the USA don't share your views about who is black and who isn't.



Quote:
Why when someone not from the Caribbean calls out the obvious, people get so offended? Here´s a source, staight from the horse´s mouth. Not black American propaganda or anything like that. Nope, this is written for Dominicans, by Dominicans. Peep it out.

Hoy Digital - República Dominicana: ¿Negro yo? No, indio

Vale más que el excremento, diría yo. Good hair...bad hair...dark-skinned indian, light skinned indian....no ownership. That´s cool though. It´s how it is.

I just notice that Dominicans often label themselves without any regards to an African background. Is that ok with me? Sure. It´s their culture, fine.
So you're gonna pretend that the blacks in your country, the "African-Americans", don't make distinctions between good hair and bad hair, and they don't straighten their nappy hair also? They even wear actual wigs glued on to their skulls, for god sake, I've never seen that in DR. lol And many of these African-Americans call themselves red-bones and yellow-bones when they're dark-skined with strong negroid features, and go around saying they're mixed with the imaginary Cherokees and Chocataws in their distant family tree with no actual genetic or historical evidence to prove this. This is not a Dominican issue, but rather a black people issue. It seems that many blacks have this inferiority complex worldwide.

Anyway the majority of blacks or predominantly Afro admixed people in DR are fully ware of their blackness like I said, now some embrace it and some don't like anywhere else. You're telling me you've never heard a Dominican call themselves negro or moreno before? I can easily show you songs from this country in which people refer to themselves as negro/moreno, or sing about some sexy morena and negra women. So in your mind you actually think these terms simply don't exist in the Dominican vocabulary, and only the Haitians are negro, your comments just keep getting more ridiculous every time.


Quote:
I´m simply against the hatred and disdain many show towards Haitians. It´s alive and well in the Cibao:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-human-rights

There, I responded.
One lynching proves what exactly? Extrajudicial punishment is common throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. In Haiti, for example, they burn people alive with tires like in Africa, they call it necklacing. Hanging seems like a much more humane and civilized way to kill someone.
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:51 PM
 
19 posts, read 6,877 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLIMMACKEY View Post
Well Trujillo is the one that started the BS. And to be clear, if one isnt embracing their heritage then they most likely dont know, or are willfully ignorant. The narrative that black dominicans deny their blackness wasnt created off the island...it was created on the island. Lets be honest with the facts yeah/ Im a black american who lives in Rio De Janeiro and there is more of an embracing of their "afro" heritage in Brazil than certain other places. I do admit that the "afro latino" movement is alive and very well...as it should be.
Trujillo started what? I'm sure that the very concept of white supremacy and black inferiority predates Rafael Trujillo's reign. This is a worldwide issue, since blacks are of course socioeconomically at the very bottom of almost every country in the western hemisphere, and black countries are the poorest with few exceptions, blacks are typically associated with poverty, misery, subhumanity, etc.. negative things, whereas whites are associated with wealth and prestige. That is specially true in DR since we share an island with the blackest nation in the western hemisphere, which also happens to be the poorest nation in the region unsurprisingly. Tell me why do you say that if someone isn't "embracing" their African heritage, it means that they're ignorant or unaware of it? So you're saying all those blacks in African countries who bleach their black skin are unaware of their African ancestry?

Now DR isn't very pro-black, just like Brazil or any other country, but there are still also pro-black cultural movements in DR. There's really no denial, it's more of a love-hate relationship, we like certain things about "blackness," and dislike other things. For example in this video you can see plenty of lighter mulattos embracing that African culture.


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Old 11-04-2018, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,208 posts, read 1,593,153 times
Reputation: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banilejo View Post
You admit you've never lived in DR for any significant amount of time, and neither have you lived in any community in the USA with a large Dominican population. So you're pulling all your worthless anecdotes from where? Fill in the blank. None of the videos I posted show any upscale neighborhoods, for one, those videos are of public protests in different parts of the city. So you just assume they're in upscale areas because the people don't look African enough, and it doesn't go with your preconceived notions of this nation's demographics. I can show you many videos of rural working class areas throughout this country that are full of people who look whiter than those posted above. There's no region or area in DR where the people are 80% black, except for Haitian Batey slums. Now the problems with your racial classifications is that they're stupid and incoherent, and seem to be more politically based rather than scientifically or genetically based. In your country people thought a white anglo woman like Rachel Dolezal was a black woman, it's really comical, you have the most messed up racial classifications, yet you want to criticize our way of viewing race. In DR if you look black, you're black, and if you look mixed, you're mixed; plain and simple.

Now here are some videos of Dominicans living in the USA. Let's say if Dominicans like this below where to say the "N WORD", would blacks take an issue with that, or would they say " oh, they're just black like us". lol I've seen African-Americans complaining about this rapper called Cardi B appropriating their sub-culture, and some of them have even said she's a light-skin Latina, even though she's brown. So obviously most blacks in the USA don't share your views about who is black and who isn't.



So you're gonna pretend that the blacks in your country, the "African-Americans", don't make distinctions between good hair and bad hair, and they don't straighten their nappy hair also? They even wear actual wigs glued on to their skulls, for god sake, I've never seen that in DR. lol And many of these African-Americans call themselves red-bones and yellow-bones when they're dark-skined with strong negroid features, and go around saying they're mixed with the imaginary Cherokees and Chocataws in their distant family tree with no actual genetic or historical evidence to prove this. This is not a Dominican issue, but rather a black people issue. It seems that many blacks have this inferiority complex worldwide.

Anyway the majority of blacks or predominantly Afro admixed people in DR are fully ware of their blackness like I said, now some embrace it and some don't like anywhere else. You're telling me you've never heard a Dominican call themselves negro or moreno before? I can easily show you songs from this country in which people refer to themselves as negro/moreno, or sing about some sexy morena and negra women. So in your mind you actually think these terms simply don't exist in the Dominican vocabulary, and only the Haitians are negro, your comments just keep getting more ridiculous every time.


One lynching proves what exactly? Extrajudicial punishment is common throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. In Haiti, for example, they burn people alive with tires like in Africa, they call it necklacing. Hanging seems like a much more humane and civilized way to kill someone.
I can only answer the highlighted. Have you ever been to NYC? MIami? Dominicans are uptown Manhattan for the most part...Harlem...Washington Heights is probably the most dense population neighborhood in Harlem. They know they have black in them and for the most part embrace it. They use the "N&**a" word just as much for slang as black americans. So yeah, they use it and its common. Also, IF you heard anyone state that Cardi B was culturally appropriating anything it was a very small uninformed minority. Most people thought she was Puerto Rican who didnt know he she was prior to the love and hip hop show. I myself, beeing as though I am a nightlife purveyor and keep an apartment in NYC know her from her booty shaking days at Sin City. You paint a very poorly drawn broad picture of how black americans view and interact with Latinos in America. I will nto address your other points as its only fair for you to get the answers you require from the individual you have been in dialogue with and have queried.....
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Old 11-04-2018, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,017 posts, read 1,991,218 times
Reputation: 1064
Bingo. Now we´re getting somewhere. Please find for me in any of my posts where I said, ¨Gosh, I wish you Dominicans would just love and accept yourselves racially the way African-Americans do¨. This seems to be a big problem in many Afro communities across the board.

Do you take exception to the article written in the Dominican Republic which clearly lays out the denial of one´s own background? You can´t seem to make up your mind about this, if my comments are completely ridiculous and growing in stupidity with every post, or if the defense is, ¨well...other countries do it too!!¨

I went to la Universidad Interamericana de PR, which is full of Dominicans. I stayed with a family for 4 weeks in Puerto Plata and made frequent trips with them to Santiago, La Vega, etc. I would gladly listen to someone talk about Americans or Colombians had they spent much less time in those respective countries. We see the world through the lenses of our experiences, but I guess your nationalism and excessive pride have you too upset to even try to listen. I respect your assessment of the shortcomings of race and identity in the US; regardless of where you live or what experiences you have with the country and its people, you seem to have some insight there. Dismissing what I say though is a serious sign of insecurity about the DR and some of the sociological issues it has.
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:09 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,899 posts, read 1,583,155 times
Reputation: 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarHero45 View Post
You should spread this news to the xenophobic South American countries like Chile and Colombia who have deported and mistreated many hard working Haitian immigrants.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nat...202589599.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...ssey-1.4307595

Colombians have a stereotype for committing crimes and getting into prostitution in most Latin American countries so they should treat Haitians and Venezuelans with more respect based on that understanding.
One of the persons with xenophobic tendencies is you. There is nothing in those sources that cite mistreatment of the Haitian family that passed through Colombia. I'm not protesting your statement of Colombian stereotyping as criminals or prostitutes as there is truth to that statement. I'm protesting your misleading remarks based on your own xenophobic views. I remember in another thread you once said how Venezuela had more racial tolerance than Colombia. You should look at youtube videos of black Colombian musicians, actors and news reporters and see the amount of comments of Venezuelan people saying how they wish they had that kind of representation of black people in their media/country. Venezuela is way more eurocentric than Colombia is especially in reference to US-Americanisation and consumer orientated in its popular culture.

This is not to say Colombia is a racial paradise by no means. As with countries the world over there is evident eurocentricity which not only manifests outside the black community but especially within the black community itself across the world. However, no other country in Latin America has a mainstream media outlet advocating for pan Afro-Latino rights as Colombia does. Most Colombians are well used to black people in the now especially since the inward migration wave of the 90's/2000's. You can't even distinguish a black person from Haiti from one from the Choco at first glance. You won't get that "careful you bite your fingers off when eating a chocolate ice cream/candy" comment that the Miami Herald reports happened in Chile and that the Chileans all around them laughed. That comes from naivity and little interaction with black people which Colombia doesn't lack. There's still a colossal amount of work to do but believe you me no president like Bolsonaro in Brazil who said "Black people are not even longer useful for procreating", would get elected in Colombia in the current climate - all that could obviously change the way the world is going but I hope not. As for Venezuelan and refugee migrants, Colombia generally has an "Open Arms" policy and the UN has even praised Colombia as such. However, immigration rules are strict and upheld to the letter in most instances but every nation has a right to do this. Colombia has received the same amount of Venezuelan migrants in a space of 2-3 years as the amount of Colombians that went to Venezuela over 4 decades! That is not a measure of a xenophobic society and has been a huge burden on public services. It puts the Euro migrant crisis in nappies and we're comparing industrialised nations like Germany to much more fragile democracies and economies like Colombia or DR.

So I suggest you look in the mirror before you point the finger.

Can you distinguish whether they're Haitian or Colombian?



Critical journalism on black issues at Latin American level based in Colombia.

Last edited by Pueblofuerte; 11-04-2018 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,208 posts, read 1,593,153 times
Reputation: 706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banilejo View Post
Trujillo started what? I'm sure that the very concept of white supremacy and black inferiority predates Rafael Trujillo's reign. This is a worldwide issue, since blacks are of course socioeconomically at the very bottom of almost every country in the western hemisphere, and black countries are the poorest with few exceptions, blacks are typically associated with poverty, misery, subhumanity, etc.. negative things, whereas whites are associated with wealth and prestige. That is specially true in DR since we share an island with the blackest nation in the western hemisphere, which also happens to be the poorest nation in the region unsurprisingly. Tell me why do you say that if someone isn't "embracing" their African heritage, it means that they're ignorant or unaware of it? So you're saying all those blacks in African countries who bleach their black skin are unaware of their African ancestry?

Now DR isn't very pro-black, just like Brazil or any other country, but there are still also pro-black cultural movements in DR. There's really no denial, it's more of a love-hate relationship, we like certain things about "blackness," and dislike other things. For example in this video you can see plenty of lighter mulattos embracing that African culture.


We are speaking about the DR in particular. So please dont try and make a straw man argument from my statement. Trujillo ABSO-****IN-LUTELY spread the propaganda that all Dominicans were descended from Spain and were in no parts black even though he was what you would call a Mulatto. Stay on point, you know what the narrative is here.

And you are correct, this is a worldwide issue thanks to colonialism and its teachings. Thats where, depending on where the blacks are in the diaspora, the "colorism" perspective amongst blacks and blacks of mixed race has probogated.

We can acknowledge when we agree and agree to disagree. But facts are facts.

And if one does not embrace who they are they are willfully ignorant. NBo one is stating that a lightskin Dominican grow out a bush and get mad afro-centric with it. But to deny that it is part of your dna, and a large part at that is a problem no matter where you are. Cape Verdians used to say they we white, because they spoke Portuguese. They could be black as tar and make that claim. Self hate is a derivative of colonialism. And I can dig that its a love hate relationship....black americans have a love hate relationship with certain aspects of "blackness".....but its how you love and hate it...not the fact that you do...comprende?
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