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Old 11-01-2018, 05:32 PM
 
13 posts, read 5,995 times
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Racially, the Dominican Republic is about 10% black, 10% white, and 80% mulatto, while Haiti is nearly 98% black. And basically what the Mexicans are trying to do to USA, "reconquer by mass immigration", is the same thing that Haiti is trying to do to the DR. Not only that but the vast majority of immigrants are illegal, illegal immigration is never good, they drive up the already high crime rate even more, bring diseases and prostitution. And are obviously unwanted by the majority of Dominican society, why try to come to a place you not wanted. The flow of migration is too high, with most of them coming for no good reason, they flee a hellhole to try to make another country a hellhole. Im Dominican American and I think my country should build a border wall like the USA, except our country's border is much smaller so it would be easier. What do you think?
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,017 posts, read 1,990,687 times
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I spent 4 weeks in the Cibao, and the racism towards Haitians disgusted me. Particulary ironic were the Dominicans who complained about how poorly they were treated while working without papers in Puerto Rico, only to turn around and tell me that Haitians were thieving monkeys who practiced voodoo (I kid you not). Funny how many don´t feel empathy, even when the shoe is on the other foot.

Listen, Haitians over there work hard, really hard. Even if they´ve been living there for generations, they´re essentially invisible and will forever be treated poorly and never afforded citizenship. I guess intermarriage with Dominicans is upward mobility, but many people also refuse to recognize that these mixed marriages are even a thing. What if your family could never get US Citizenship? Would that be ok with you?

I am against all xenophobia, period. So no, I think your idea sucks.

Also, don´t drop statistics on race. We all know Dominicans try to ¨lighten¨their own racial identity. Mestizos call themselves rubios, morenos call themselves indios and black Dominicans call themselves moreno. Put 80% of those folks on the average street corner in the US and they´ll be identified as black, much to their self-loathing horror. Cut it with the Trujillo complex, you can´t share the same island and treat each other like an alien species.

Last edited by aab7855; 11-01-2018 at 07:19 PM..
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,641 posts, read 1,789,469 times
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"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NjNL4Nsa4Q
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:07 PM
 
5,456 posts, read 8,139,984 times
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Should the DR build a border wall to stop the illegal flow? No, there is no way to stop the flow.

Should the DR build a border wall to reduce the illegal flow? Yes, a wall would definitely help, especially if it is well built.

The biggest problems that affects Haiti and act as push factors for Haitians to emigrate are:

- A very low economic development level. Haiti isn´t just the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, in fact Haiti is so poor that most countries in Sub-Saharan Africa are in better economic shape (Sub-Saharan Africa is the least developed part of the world with perhaps Central Asia being comparable). To make matters worse is that the population has been growing faster than the economy for most of Haiti´s history and that is still the case.

- Widespread deforestation with the degradation of the top soil reaching catastrophic proportions in much of the country, especially along the hills and mountain sides. In a lot of areas the top soil has completely washed away and what is exposed is the rock bottom. In many areas of Haiti the mountains look brown, as if they were in a desert, and contrasts sharply with the greenery of the valleys. In itself is a beautiful scenery, but unlike in actual deserts where man creates the greenery in the valleys, in Haiti man created the desert-like mountains through mass deforestation. Top soil is needed to regenerate a forest or even to produce basic foodstuffs. Less than 1% of Haiti remains covered in the original tropical forest that once covered over 90% of the Haitian territory. Most rivers in Haiti have actually dried up. The most important river in Haiti is the Artibonite and that river has a constant supply of water and never dries up mostly because it starts in the Dominican Cordillera Central, in an inmense pine forest that is protected by a national park.

- Very high population density that is actually worse than the national average density indicates when is taken into account that roughly 10% of the country is made up of valleys and flat land. Most of the population is crammed into those thin valleys scattered in the interior and along the thin coastal lowlands. The largest valley in Haiti is the Artibonite.

- Archaic land ownership patterns favors the creation of small non-commercial farms. This land tenure practice was adopted from the very beginning of Haiti as an independent country. These farms are too small to produce enough surplus that could guarantee the farmers a decent livelihood, not to mention the extreme deforestation has affected the fertility of the land in many areas.

- Constant political and social instability. When things finally calms down it usually takes a few months for some natural disaster to wreck havoc again. The Haitian government is in itself very weak and basically survives from an international life support (most of the Haitian government revenues originate in international aid while only a small portion originates in taxes), but also institutions in Haiti are very weak.


I will write about the pull factors that leads Haitians to migrate in large numbers to the DR in another post when I have the time.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:51 PM
 
5,456 posts, read 8,139,984 times
Reputation: 4312
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
I spent 4 weeks in the Cibao, and the racism towards Haitians disgusted me. Particulary ironic were the Dominicans who complained about how poorly they were treated while working without papers in Puerto Rico, only to turn around and tell me that Haitians were thieving monkeys who practiced voodoo (I kid you not). Funny how many don´t feel empathy, even when the shoe is on the other foot.
Hmm.. It is ironic that Dominicans from the Cibao hardly migrate to Puerto Rico. The ones that do are mostly from other parts of the DR. Basically anyone that is familiar with the DR knows this.

There are forums online where Americans and Europeans that live in various parts of the DR not for “4 weeks” but for years share their experiences. I find it interesting that their general consensus is diametrically different from what you claim to experience in “4 weeks.” I still can´t get my head wrapped around something so basic as Dominicans from the Cibao hardly migrate to Puerto Rico legally or illegally and you didn´t seem to notice this. Dominicans from the Cibao fly through their own airports when leaving the island and somehow flights to Puerto Rico from those airports are quite scarce. By contrasts, flights to NY are a dime a dozen and those flights are mostly packed with Dominicans.

How can someone spend all their time in a region with the weakest connections to Puerto Rico, yet meet enough people that live in Puerto Rico illegally to be able to generalize on the entire Dominican population.

Quote:
What if your family could never get US Citizenship? Would that be ok with you?
Spain has the second or third largest Dominican migrant community in the world and Dominicans born there to Dominican parents don´t get Spanish citizenship either. I do wonder why Dominicans there have no problem with that and register their Spain-born children as Dominican citizens. I assume Dominicans in the US would react the same way as their countrymen that live in Spain. The same happens with the small Dominican community in Italy.

There is also a tiny Dominican community in Haiti too, but in Haiti the only way to gain Haitian citizenship upon birth is by having at least one Haitian father or mother. Anyone born to foreign parents in Haiti gain the citizenship of their parents. Unlike Dominican law, which gives full Dominican citizenship to any child born to legal migrants, in Haiti it doesn´t matter if the foreign couple is legal or illegal. No Haitian blood means no Haitian citizenship upon birth.

Haiti is actually a very normal country when it comes to this. A minority of countries are like the USA (automatic citizenship simply for being born there) and a minority also give full citizenship to the children of legal immigrants but negates it to those of illegal immigrants. The key is to migrate legally.

Quote:
Also, don´t drop statistics on race. We all know Dominicans try to ¨lighten¨their own racial identity. Mestizos call themselves rubios, morenos call themselves indios and black Dominicans call themselves moreno. Put 80% of those folks on the average street corner in the US and they´ll be identified as black, much to their self-loathing horror. Cut it with the Trujillo complex, you can´t share the same island and treat each other like an alien species.
I don´t see what this has to do with anything. You can´t go around imposing US labels in other countries that have completely different historic and cultural origins. The US spent a good part of its history imposing itself on other societies and because of that gained the label of imperialism. That the imperialists often are whites from stronger and richer countries is something that doesn´t remain unnoticed. Its a very self-righteaous way to live life, perhaps a part of what some call white privilege. The good thing about Americans is that practically there is no acceptance of other societies labels. That is fine, the US is a country with its own culture, traditions, and history. Why should Americans accept foreign impositions in their own country?

Are you aware that in Haiti the mulattoes are seen as different from the blacks? Haiti has a tradition of ethnic based political parties (something that never existed in Dominican politics), where the evidence of racial admixture or the lack of such was a close predictor of what political party a person was likely to support. The usual divisions was the mulatto-black dychotomy. Mulatto presidents tended to favor policies that benefitted the Haitian mulattoes, while black presidents did the same for the blacks. Now, you can go to Haiti and impose all the American labels that you want, but that means nothing in a country that has little to nothing to do with the USA.

The other ironic aspect in all of this is that its very easy to search various genetic studies that are posted in scientific journals where reality is widely on display regarding many peoples, the Dominicans among them.

Last edited by AntonioR; 11-01-2018 at 09:12 PM..
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,017 posts, read 1,990,687 times
Reputation: 1064
Well, I doubt these folks were lying. I met and spoke with people in Santiago and Puerto Plata who had done the journey in yola, also I lived in PR and I guess you're right, more Dominicans there had come over from Santo Domingo, San Pedro, etc. The point I'm making is that it's very unfortunate to be discriminated against as an economic migrant looking for a better life, only to turn around and do the same thing to others when you get home.

Regardless of the recent xenophobia in the United States, I hope it remains a country of immigrants. I just don't understand why Dominican-Americans would speak that way about Haitians, it really makes no sense.

I am making no attempt to put American racial labels on Dominicans, but the original poster is throwing around questionable demographic statistics to try to justify building a wall to keep out the "black" Haitians? Nah, don't play that. Someone else could come along and challenge the Dominican racial self-image, that's all I'm saying. The shoe could wind up on the other foot real fast.
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
4,641 posts, read 1,789,469 times
Reputation: 8588
Here is the question you must ask yourself, as a humanitarian: What is the solution to the lifelong future plight of all Haitians, and when do we start working on it?
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Northeast
227 posts, read 148,240 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
I spent 4 weeks in the Cibao, and the racism towards Haitians disgusted me. Particulary ironic were the Dominicans who complained about how poorly they were treated while working without papers in Puerto Rico, only to turn around and tell me that Haitians were thieving monkeys who practiced voodoo (I kid you not). Funny how many don´t feel empathy, even when the shoe is on the other foot.

Listen, Haitians over there work hard, really hard. Even if they´ve been living there for generations, they´re essentially invisible and will forever be treated poorly and never afforded citizenship. I guess intermarriage with Dominicans is upward mobility, but many people also refuse to recognize that these mixed marriages are even a thing. What if your family could never get US Citizenship? Would that be ok with you?

I am against all xenophobia, period. So no, I think your idea sucks.

Also, don´t drop statistics on race. We all know Dominicans try to ¨lighten¨their own racial identity. Mestizos call themselves rubios, morenos call themselves indios and black Dominicans call themselves moreno. Put 80% of those folks on the average street corner in the US and they´ll be identified as black, much to their self-loathing horror. Cut it with the Trujillo complex, you can´t share the same island and treat each other like an alien species.
You should tell this to the Bahamas and Chile as well. Apparently, they have issues of xenophobia towards Haitian immigrants as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41mBLJk4d8g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii9VNmbpdbQ
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Northeast
227 posts, read 148,240 times
Reputation: 357
And no...the DR doesn't need a border wall.
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Old 11-02-2018, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Northeast
227 posts, read 148,240 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
Well, I doubt these folks were lying. I met and spoke with people in Santiago and Puerto Plata who had done the journey in yola, also I lived in PR and I guess you're right, more Dominicans there had come over from Santo Domingo, San Pedro, etc. The point I'm making is that it's very unfortunate to be discriminated against as an economic migrant looking for a better life, only to turn around and do the same thing to others when you get home.

Regardless of the recent xenophobia in the United States, I hope it remains a country of immigrants. I just don't understand why Dominican-Americans would speak that way about Haitians, it really makes no sense.

I am making no attempt to put American racial labels on Dominicans, but the original poster is throwing around questionable demographic statistics to try to justify building a wall to keep out the "black" Haitians? Nah, don't play that. Someone else could come along and challenge the Dominican racial self-image, that's all I'm saying. The shoe could wind up on the other foot real fast.
https://www.haitilibre.com/en/news-1...-haitians.html

https://colombiareports.com/venezuel...death-threats/

https://elpais.com/internacional/201...20_265246.html

https://www.las2orillas.co/vas-choco...-departamento/

“Aquí no hay negros”: develando la presencia de población afrodesce...

"Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones."
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