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Old 05-07-2019, 10:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrizeWinner View Post
Yea it doesn't matter you and your lover were getting along in another thread and now you guys are having another domestic dispute.




Yet you are in a thread speaking on Caribbean people being delusional and what they think and how they should think. You and your lover couldn't even spot a fake wanna posing as Dominican on this forum.
Why dont you find something else to do. Go to Guyana and help Jagdeo who is trying to be president.
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Old 05-08-2019, 02:18 AM
 
294 posts, read 180,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Why dont you find something else to do. Go to Guyana and help Jagdeo who is trying to be president.
Yea why don't you get your money up and take a vacation...

Your party of criminals who regard Abdul Kabir,a known terrorist, is having a hard time sticking together .


For some one obsessed with race and Dominicans ,its a shame you don't know how to spot the fake ones and let some non-Dominican fool you into thinking he was.

Wise up and do something with your life.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:43 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,923,923 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrizeWinner View Post
Yea why don't you get your money up and take a vacation...

Your party of criminals who regard Abdul Kabir,a known terrorist, is having a hard time sticking together .


For some one obsessed with race and Dominicans ,its a shame you don't know how to spot the fake ones and let some non-Dominican fool you into thinking he was.

Wise up and do something with your life.
Told you that running to support Jagdeo is a better use of your time. Dont worry about me. I think that someone thinks that you live in Mummy's basement.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,202 posts, read 1,577,785 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
In fact you made my point. 50% are NOT calling themselves "black". 8% do. Do you think that only 8% are black? Is there a well understood agreement in Brazil as to who is or isnt "black". In fact you are making my point though I think that your North American sensibilities blind you to that fact.

And even in the USA black music and style is loved, usually more than black people are so the popularity of Afro Brazilian culture doesnt impress. Now do describe the millions of "black" Brazilians who have managerial jobs in Corporate Brazil if that nation is such an earthly paradise for blacks. And I mean "black", not mixed, because yes skin color matters a huge amount in Brazil but only 8% attach black when the census taker comes around.

The fact that Bahia is much more African than is the USA is because large numbers of slaves were illegally trafficked AFTER the slave trade should have ended so that when slavery ended in Brazil large numbers of people were either African born or had parents who were. In fact some even RETURNED to their communities in Nigeria/Benin!
Fist off I must inquire as to where I stated that Brazil was an earthly paradise for blacks? Please post that comment for me if you can.......

American sensibilities have nothing to do with it. Afro Brazilian culture is not defined in the same paradigm as Afro American culture. The one thing I take umbrage with is people speaking matter of factly of something when they dont quite have the intimate knowledge of it. You ask is there a well understood agreement in Brazil as to who is or isn't "black"? Or was that a statement? You say you haven't been to Brazil in ages...well Im here for months at a time. So let me help you out....Afro Brazilians whose parents would have just stated they were "Brazilian" decades ago openly embrace their heritage nowadays. Not just charcoal black Brasileiros, but even the somewhat ambiguous ones as well. If you ask other Brazilians whom may be a mixture of German, Japanese, etc. the answers will be based off of the prejudice of those subjects questioned. Most with common sense know and understand that the Brazilian population is highly mixed with African. Its not even a question up for debate.

Asking about millions of Afro Brazilians in corporate world is a straw man argument. Where did I ever state that the country is an earthly paradise for Blacks, or anyone in particular?? Countries in Africa arent even earthly paradises for Blacks. Neither are Caribbean. There are plenty well to do Afro Brazilians in private and public sector jobs. Of course, just as in any post colonial society they are not the rule, but still bordering on the exception. Now of course, my intimate knowledge is of the city of Rio and her GMA. All Back Brazilians did not/do not reside in the Favelas as people may think they do based off of youtube videos and second hand info. Zona Sul is a light mix with a high number of "non-black" Favelados and a small number of Afro Brazilians who are wealthy, Centro much more populous with Afro Brazilians and is where I live, but Zona Norte is full of what, depending on your POV, may be deemed as middle class Afro Brazilians as well as poor Afro Brazilians. It even extends past the city of Rio to Novo Iguacu and Cabo Frio. College educated and extremely employed (for Brazilian standards).

Ive been to and know about Salvador Bahia, but thank you.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,202 posts, read 1,577,785 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I note the use "a lot". But then we see the census and it says that 8% of the population self identifies as "preto". Please explain if you think I am wrong. Do you really believe that only 8% of the population has very visible Afro ancestry? If not how much and is there general consensus in Brazil as to who is or who isnt "black", as there is in the USA?

A group is becoming "woke" and I made reference to that, but clearly this isnt a norm.
Of course not. I didnt infer to that and I hope that you dont think I did.....

I stated that at least 50% is mixed. And my above response to another comment details how, here on the ground, Brasileiros self identify and are "labeled" by other Brasileiros.

I think we were speaking the same language. The group you speak of as "becoming" woke is indeed there. The inferences to celebrating AND engaging in certain pop culture black american practices is just one form of expression that has been evident for a while.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:31 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,923,923 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLIMMACKEY View Post
Fist off I must inquire as to where I stated that Brazil was an earthly paradise for blacks? Please post that comment for me if you can.......

American sensibilities have nothing to do with it. Afro Brazilian culture is not defined in the same paradigm as Afro American culture. The one thing I take umbrage with is people speaking matter of factly of something when they dont quite have the intimate knowledge of it. You ask is there a well understood agreement in Brazil as to who is or isn't "black"? Or was that a statement? You say you haven't been to Brazil in ages...well Im here for months at a time. So let me help you out....Afro Brazilians whose parents would have just stated they were "Brazilian" decades ago openly embrace their heritage nowadays. .


Only 8% of the population of Brazil self identifies as "preto". Based on what you see of Brazil do you think that its population is only 60% as "black" as is the USA? In the USA its 12% (13% if Hispanics who self identify as "black" are included).


That is my point. In the USA its easy to define who is "black" and the only fuzzy line occurs when someone has a non black parent. In the Caribbean it is less so, even in those with a British colonial past.


In Latin America, inclusive of Brazil, it's decidedly less easy to define who is or who isn't "black". That is unless you tell me that 92% of the population shows such minimal African ancestry as to make such a conversation irrelevant.




So the question becomes what is the "black" population of Brazil? 8% as the census claims or 52% as some activists claim? Or some where in between, the exact % unknown because there is no agreement as to who is "black" and who isn't. THAT was my point.

I am also not judging racial identities between different societies because this is a social construct, so will manifest differently based on the heritage of the society. Even in South Africa identifying who was or wasn't "black" was more difficult than it was in the USA with its "one drop" rule. Latin America allows more easy exit from "blackness" and easy entry into "whiteness" and outside of the elites racial identities are more fluid.


The fact remains that a "white" upper middle class Brazilian can admit to not too distant "African" ancestry without losing his white privilege. Unless this ancestry is very distant this isn't as possible in the USA, so people play around less with this.

I am also perfectly aware that Brazilian can openly identify with and even participate in Afro Brazilian culture without losing their white privilege. This is in fact even true of younger white Americans who love AA culture but don't participate in ensuring that AAs get equal access. This fact allows both groups to avoid discussions of racism which continues to occur in both societies.


So I am not that impressed with the white Brazilian who dances capoeira but who isn't willing to discuss the ample implicit bias and institutional racism that those "blacks" who he attended college with have to encounter as they attempt to build their careers. He is like the white Millennial American in that respect.

Last edited by caribny; 05-13-2019 at 05:50 PM..
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:35 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,923,923 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLIMMACKEY View Post
Of course not. I didnt infer to that and I hope that you dont think I did.....

I stated that at least 50% is mixed. And my above response to another comment details how, here on the ground, Brasileiros self identify and are "labeled" by other Brasileiros.

I think we were speaking the same language. The group you speak of as "becoming" woke is indeed there. The inferences to celebrating AND engaging in certain pop culture black american practices is just one form of expression that has been evident for a while.


And you will admit that a "mixed" identity is often used to escape being called "black". In fact some might argue that if the same criteria to determine the 8% black identity was used to describe the 47% "white" identity then far fewer people in Brazil would be "white".


So we can debate the reasons for a narrow definition of "blackness" and a broad definition of "whiteness". Logic would dictate that whiteness is more prestigious whereas "blackness" isn't so more try to enter the former and escape the latter. Those who try to do so are able to more easily than is possible in the USA because there aren't mutually agreed upon definition of who is or isn't "black".
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,202 posts, read 1,577,785 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Only 8% of the population of Brazil self identifies as "preto". Based on what you see of Brazil do you think that its population is only 60% as "black" as is the USA? In the USA its 12% (13% if Hispanics who self identify as "black" are included).

I've answered this a couple times. The population is visibly split with Afro heritage and heritages including Portuguese, German, Japanese and of course Indian.

That is my point. In the USA its easy to define who is "black" and the only fuzzy line occurs when someone has a non black parent. In the Caribbean it is less so, even in those with a British colonial past.

What is? The point that I made earlier? You bring up the census, but negate the fact that it was created and issued by a biased institution. The reason for 25 choices of identification was and is still the true essence of branqueamento, just not in the physical. Once again, I think we are speaking the same language.

In Latin America, inclusive of Brazil, it's decidedly less easy to define who is or who isn't "black". That is unless you tell me that 92% of the population shows such minimal African ancestry as to make such a conversation irrelevant.

Again, who are you directing the rhetorical to? I believe you agree with the comments I made but perhaps do not know it? I stated a while ago that even the government has ceded that at least 50% of the population is "mistura" with African heritage. The psychology of why people have and still today to a degree MAY identify as one of the 20 something classifications seems to be overlooked by your analysis. And speaking with older Brasileiros, the government was known in the past to identify the populous as they wished. They heralded their supposed status as a true exotic melting pot whilst not truly embracing the Afro heritage as much as the Portuguese. They sing songs celebrating this. And Bolso is trying to further these efforts as we speak..


So the question becomes what is the "black" population of Brazil? 8% as the census claims or 52% as some activists claim? Or some where in between, the exact % unknown because there is no agreement as to who is "black" and who isn't. THAT was my point.

I hope that was not an attempt at marginalization. Its not some delusional Brazilians enamored by the Black American POV of "blackness", nor blacks foreign to the country that have settled on the number as factual. The government FINALLY ceded. Here, the Brasileiros decide for themselves. But as I stated, I would love to know what part of my previous comments you do not agree with?

I am also not judging racial identities between different societies because this is a social construct, so will manifest differently based on the heritage of the society. Even in South Africa identifying who was or wasn't "black" was more difficult than it was in the USA with its "one drop" rule. Latin America allows more easy exit from "blackness" and easy entry into "whiteness" and outside of the elites racial identities are more fluid.

Which I why I am left wondering why you asked the question about who decides on blackness in Brazil??

The fact remains that a "white" upper middle class Brazilian can admit to not too distant "African" ancestry without losing his white privilege. Unless this ancestry is very distant this isn't as possible in the USA, so people play around less with this.

No one is denying this. I actually made the point earlier in a comment adding to post made by NYWRITER.....but as one who is here physically, I will tell you the truth is that it is more prevalent with non wealthy Brazilians due to the Affirmative Action laws here. Specifically for college admissions and federal jobs.

I am also perfectly aware that Brazilian can openly identify with and even participate in Afro Brazilian culture without losing their white privilege. This is in fact even true of younger white Americans who love AA culture but don't participate in ensuring that AAs get equal access. This fact allows both groups to avoid discussions of racism which continues to occur in both societies.

Brazilians as a whole have ALWAYS participated in these activities....appropriating them as purely Brazilian past times. Whether it be Capoeira, Samba, etc....which are deeply rooted in origins of the African slaves. A great example is the winners of the Carnaval this year. The escola samba, Mangueira. A large favela near Zona Norte. Full of Brazilians who you know and they also know are descended from African slaves on at least one side of their family. Their "rainha da bateria" is an Afro Brazilian beauty by the name of Evelyn Bastos. But favelados, black, white and ambiguous cried when the favela won and claim that victory as their own. The theme was the other side of Brazils history...blackness. Celebrating Brazilians of African heritage as far back as Zumbi, the Brazilian Nat Turner. The point you make is true, but understand that it is inherent in this discussion between the two of us.

So I am not that impressed with the white Brazilian who dances capoeira but who isn't willing to discuss the ample implicit bias and institutional racism that those "blacks" who he attended college with have to encounter as they attempt to build their careers. He is like the white Millennial American in that respect.
So now maybe we may be getting somewhere. Are you inferring that the friends I have here and referred to are "white" Brasileiros who participate in what you labeled as a new level of wokeness? If so you misunderstood that prior post. Again, a valid point but you are preaching to the choir here not schooling someone who is clueless.

Last edited by SLIMMACKEY; 05-14-2019 at 10:40 PM..
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,202 posts, read 1,577,785 times
Reputation: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
And you will admit that a "mixed" identity is often used to escape being called "black". In fact some might argue that if the same criteria to determine the 8% black identity was used to describe the 47% "white" identity then far fewer people in Brazil would be "white".


So we can debate the reasons for a narrow definition of "blackness" and a broad definition of "whiteness". Logic would dictate that whiteness is more prestigious whereas "blackness" isn't so more try to enter the former and escape the latter. Those who try to do so are able to more easily than is possible in the USA because there aren't mutually agreed upon definition of who is or isn't "black".
We can most definitely agree to those facts. Half of my family in New Orleans played that ambiguous game as well.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:21 AM
 
726 posts, read 380,366 times
Reputation: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Only 8% of the population of Brazil self identifies as "preto". Based on what you see of Brazil do you think that its population is only 60% as "black" as is the USA? In the USA its 12% (13% if Hispanics who self identify as "black" are included).


That is my point. In the USA its easy to define who is "black" and the only fuzzy line occurs when someone has a non black parent. In the Caribbean it is less so, even in those with a British colonial past.


In Latin America, inclusive of Brazil, it's decidedly less easy to define who is or who isn't "black". That is unless you tell me that 92% of the population shows such minimal African ancestry as to make such a conversation irrelevant.




So the question becomes what is the "black" population of Brazil? 8% as the census claims or 52% as some activists claim? Or some where in between, the exact % unknown because there is no agreement as to who is "black" and who isn't. THAT was my point.

I am also not judging racial identities between different societies because this is a social construct, so will manifest differently based on the heritage of the society. Even in South Africa identifying who was or wasn't "black" was more difficult than it was in the USA with its "one drop" rule. Latin America allows more easy exit from "blackness" and easy entry into "whiteness" and outside of the elites racial identities are more fluid.


The fact remains that a "white" upper middle class Brazilian can admit to not too distant "African" ancestry without losing his white privilege. Unless this ancestry is very distant this isn't as possible in the USA, so people play around less with this.

I am also perfectly aware that Brazilian can openly identify with and even participate in Afro Brazilian culture without losing their white privilege. This is in fact even true of younger white Americans who love AA culture but don't participate in ensuring that AAs get equal access. This fact allows both groups to avoid discussions of racism which continues to occur in both societies.


So I am not that impressed with the white Brazilian who dances capoeira but who isn't willing to discuss the ample implicit bias and institutional racism that those "blacks" who he attended college with have to encounter as they attempt to build their careers. He is like the white Millennial American in that respect.
some examples














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