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Old 02-07-2019, 02:57 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,870 posts, read 1,544,263 times
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^^

This kind of denial is exactly why African Americans get mad, although they take it to the other extreme and are equally in the wrong with their pontifying.

White supremacy is real, blanqueamiento via mestizaje is real, the 'A RedenÁ„o de Cam' painting is real and this exists in our communities. The difference being that we don't have the visceral disdain for each-other as in the States because in general we are a spectrum of so many different mix of ethnicities even within our own families and political segregation wasn't made into law as recent as the 60's.

Here's your 'indio' excuse contended. From minute 5:35




Here is the treatment some dark skinned people get in the DR. 'I am Marwa' is a Kenyan traveller (friend of Richard's World and other well known travel vloggers). The 'Haiti context' obviously exacerbates these tensions, never-the-less there are issues here that can't just be swept under the rug.

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Old 02-07-2019, 03:14 PM
 
142 posts, read 33,635 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
^^

This kind of denial is exactly why African Americans get mad, although they take it to the other extreme and are equally in the wrong with their pontifying.

White supremacy is real, blanqueamiento via mestizaje is real, the 'A RedenÁ„o de Cam' painting is real and this exists in our communities. The difference being that we don't have the visceral disdain for each-other as in the States because in general we are a spectrum of so many different mix of ethnicities even within our own families and political segregation wasn't made into law as recent as the 60's.

Here's your 'indio' excuse contended. From minute 5:35




Here is the treatment some dark skinned people get in the DR. 'I am Marwa' is a Kenyan traveller (friend of Richard's World and other well known travel vloggers). The 'Haiti context' obviously exacerbates these tensions, never-the-less there are issues here that can't just be swept under the rug.

I really thought you would provide more meaningful and nuanced material but that documentary has been refuted too many times. MR Lewis is just another myopic African american with binary understanding of race. and has all the imperialistic qualities of his whites compatriots and is now in a crusade to impose his shallow views on race and ethnicity to the rest of the African diaspora. I am convinced that the obsession of AAS with turning Dominicans into blacks is a form of expansionist agenda, they need foot soldiers in their antagonist war against whitey.

I was aware of the case of the tourist but lets be clear at something 5 years ago a similar situation happen to a white journalist, as he was wandering a neighborhood looking for his parked car, someone saw him as suspicious and called other neighbors, he got bit up by a mob, white or black you will be treated bad by the RD police and if in the wrong hood by Dominican themselves.
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:46 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,870 posts, read 1,544,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
MR Lewis is just another myopic African american with binary understanding of race.
Mr. Lewis may have that a-typical binary understanding but I was actually listening to the words of Juan Rodriguez, the DR's minister of culture at the time. It's like you have selective hearing and jump to attack the African American when in fact its a Dominican refuting your claim about the term 'indio'[/quote]


Luckily the conversation is moving on and I hope eventually we meet a middle ground whereby there is no origin-shaming from either side.

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Old 02-07-2019, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,811 posts, read 4,431,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post

i have attached a Dominican drivers licence for you information, indio is an skin color not a race.
Interesting. In my home country my tanned complexion would be reffered to as Moreno. But not as racial implication, strictly skin color.

"Indio: would be considered an offensive term despite the fact most of my compatriots are exactly that. LOL.

Last edited by UrbanLuis; 02-07-2019 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:13 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,870 posts, read 1,544,263 times
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^^
Exactly, this is the intrinsic colourism which people like Snapshoot try so hard to deny without need. These conversations can be had without resorting to the hateful division and pigeon holing forced upon you by US society/binary optics.

In the following video the interviewer and the guests take the mick out of eachother's race, region, class, stereotypes, political affiliation, etc. basically ridiculing these labels and from this what eventually stands out is a clear admiration for one another despite differences and without denying the intrinsic challenges in Colombian society, a powerful message of unity and the warmth & various colours of Latin American society as a whole.




Refreshing Colombian-based journalism in defence of LatAm's minorities.



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Old 02-08-2019, 10:07 AM
 
142 posts, read 33,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Interesting. In my home country my tanned complexion would be reffered to as Moreno. But not as racial implication, strictly skin color.

"Indio: would be considered an offensive term despite the fact most of my compatriots are exactly that. LOL.
I have clarified to him that all his assumptions about why Dominicans act the why the act are wrong. Explained to him that Dominicans use indio as an skin color not a race, and provided a DR iD as evidence. But because this does not go with his pre-held ideas of Dominicans he say im denying.....what else can i do?

he claims Dominican want to pass as Indians and overly celebrate their Taino heritage to deny the African one, but provided no evidence, am still waiting to see how and when Dominicans celebrate such heritage, as Dominican celebrate that even less than the African. Besides Naming some avenues and some carnival floats I basically do not see any celebration of Taino heritage in DR.

African cultural heritage in DR is fading, not because of denial but under the weight of modernity.
one example is the religion, Dominicans have been practicing a hybrid religion of African, native and Catholicism, call it Santeria, or Dominican Voodoo. All that is disappearing because people are becoming more secular, less religions, less superstitious. Also the advance on Protestantism in DR is accelerating the demise, protestant are way less accommodating than Catholics to African religious practices.

African costumes in the Dominican carnival are also disappearing, they take too long to make, and can be expensive, people are just buying cheap Chinese made costumes for the carnival. They rather dress like Sponge Bob than spend a week weaving plantain leaves to make a costume.

Music is also under attack, people do not want to play African or Europeans musical instruments, they want to use computers and auto tunes, Djs are erasing the heritage, not denial.

Lots of Spanish traditions are disappearing to not just the Africans, it is sad but you cant inconvenience people for the sake of preserving the heritage of some far removed relative who came to the island 400 years ago. People want to live their lives now, not in some petrified museum.

There have been efforts to record and preserve all the African music in the country, and there have been a revival of those traditions and some CDs have been recorded preserving the music for the future, but the old musicians are dying and the new generations listen to Cardi-B instead.

follow the link to have an idea of the kind of music am talking about.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXmZ-g5Jiv8

Last edited by Snapshoot; 02-08-2019 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:47 AM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The vast majority of African slaves were imported into the British and French colonies. One time I had a discussion about this with someone in real life and I couldnít understand why that person had such a hard time understanding this fact. We were speaking specifically of the Caribbean islands, but I got her way of thinking when she said the Spanish Caribbean has most of the land in the Caribbean. While true, it didnít occurred to her that the vast majority of slaves were imported to the English and French territories, but most died in the fields.

The total number of Africans imported into Puerto Rico and modern Dominican Republic didnít passed 50,000 and thatís for both islands combined. Cuba imported the largest number (canít remember if it was 500,000 or 800,000) and the bulk was imported after many French colonists from Haiti settled in eastern Cuba.

Places like Haiti, Jamaica, and the Lesser Antilles imported tens of millions of Africans.

As a general rule, the Spaniards treated their slaves better than the French or the English, in part due to religious beliefs and in part due to less intensive agricultural economies. The main activity in all three Spanish territories was cattle ranching, which never required much slaves nor did the owners needed to beat the living daylights of the slaves to encourage them to work.

The English and the French had highly productive islands because they saw their colonies as if they were giant businesses. That high productivity went hand in hand with a dominating plantation economy and very efficient control of the slaves (aka, do whatever it took to keep them working at full speed and at full intensity).

While on the French part (aka Haiti) of the island of Santo Domingo (also known as Hispaniola) imported well over 1 million Africans during the course of less than a century, the average life expectancy of an African was 6 or 7 years from the moment they arrived at the French port. Slaves almost made up over 80% of the population and African-born blacks (aka bozales in Spanish) were always more numerous than island-born blacks (aka black criollos or creoles).

Meanwhile in the Spanish part of the island (modern Dom Rep) the slaves were always a minority ranging from 10% to 15% of the total population, and the majority lived to old age. Most were island-born and by the 1700ís the had been on the island for generations and had an almost completely Spanish culture, plus had Spanish as their mother tongue. Despite being slave, most werenít used to a strict control from their owners and were never subjected to truly harsh labors.

Many colonists from the French and English colonies in the Caribbean that visited the Spanish islands, particular the Spanish territory of Hispaniola, wrote that the Spaniards were very humaine with their slaves, that most slave owning Spaniards got to know very well their slaves because they only owned one or two plus their families instead of whole towns. The slaves were fed and clothes the same foods and clothes as their owners did for their own families. In many cases the slaves ate the meals on the same table as their masters and with the mastersí family. The slaves were given an excess of rest days via holidays that by law they were not allowed to work. Spanish law required every court to have a defendant of the slaves that needed to offer his services free of charge, since priests were used to inspect the slaves all over the territory and if there was any evidence of abuse they were obligated to alert the authorities. A slave had the right to file a complaint of ill treatment and the Spanish laws was on their side.

There are many other particulars that made slavery in the Spanish territories different from those in the French and English territories. In part, this is a major reason why descendants of African slaves in Spanish America suffer less resentments towards the whites than in the French and English parts of this hemisphere.

One aspect I will also mention is that it is a little easier for descendants of Spanish slaves to track their ancestry, if they choose, because there is an actual paper trail that English and French slaves donít have. For example, Spanish law obligated that all slaves be baptised by their masters and there was severe punishments on the masters if they didnít do it. The end result is that in the Spanish American countries the slaves baptism books exist in our days, making it easier to understand the genealogy of most descedants of slaves. No such records exist in French America and in English American countries.

I could go into more details with documented historical evidences, but right now I have to do something else.
You could go on ridiculous propaganda.

You sort of proved the point of the OP.

Spanish slavery nicer and humane?

Do you know what was going on in Spain at the time?

In 1492 Spain ordered Jews to leave the country, convert to Catholicism, or be burned at the stake. Those forcibly converted, if they were found out to be practicing Judaism, were burned at the stake. Muslims were also expelled, forcibly converted, and if they found out to be practicing Islam, burned at the stake.

The Catholic church decided it was okay to plunder and enslave non Catholics, so the church actively supported conquest of the Americas and the ENSLAVEMENT of Africans. Spain and Portugal started the importation of African slaves to the Americans. The Americas were divided between Portugal and Spain, with Portugal getting Brazil (the church told them they could get Africa too) and with Spain getting the rest of the Americas.

Of course the expelled Jews, upon settling in Britain, France, and Holland quickly found work. Portugal and Spain were more advanced than the rest of Europe. These Jews took their advanced navigational skills and put them to use in other Western European nations, which were then able to get in on colonalism.

So basically, genocide of Jews, genocide of Muslims, genocide of Natives (places like the Dominican Republic and Cuba had most of the Natives worked literally to death, that's why large numbers of African slaves were brought in).

Brazil has 40 percent of slaves brought to the Americas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Brazil

The Catholic Church and Spanish/Portuguese Imperialism committed crimes against humanity on a far grander scale than the Germans did during the Holocaust.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:49 AM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
I have clarified to him that all his assumptions about why Dominicans act the why the act are wrong. Explained to him that Dominicans use indio as an skin color not a race, and provided a DR iD as evidence. But because this does not go with his pre-held ideas of Dominicans he say im denying.....what else can i do?

he claims Dominican want to pass as Indians and overly celebrate their Taino heritage to deny the African one, but provided no evidence, am still waiting to see how and when Dominicans celebrate such heritage, as Dominican celebrate that even less than the African. Besides Naming some avenues and some carnival floats I basically do not see any celebration of Taino heritage in DR.

African cultural heritage in DR is fading, not because of denial but under the weight of modernity.
one example is the religion, Dominicans have been practicing a hybrid religion of African, native and Catholicism, call it Santeria, or Dominican Voodoo. All that is disappearing because people are becoming more secular, less religions, less superstitious. Also the advance on Protestantism in DR is accelerating the demise, protestant are way less accommodating than Catholics to African religious practices.

African costumes in the Dominican carnival are also disappearing, they take too long to make, and can be expensive, people are just buying cheap Chinese made costumes for the carnival. They rather dress like Sponge Bob than spend a week weaving plantain leaves to make a costume.

Music is also under attack, people do not want to play African or Europeans musical instruments, they want to use computers and auto tunes, Djs are erasing the heritage, not denial.

Lots of Spanish traditions are disappearing to not just the Africans, it is sad but you cant inconvenience people for the sake of preserving the heritage of some far removed relative who came to the island 400 years ago. People want to live their lives now, not in some petrified museum.

There have been efforts to record and preserve all the African music in the country, and there have been a revival of those traditions and some CDs have been recorded preserving the music for the future, but the old musicians are dying and the new generations listen to Cardi-B instead.

follow the link to have an idea of the kind of music am talking about.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXmZ-g5Jiv8

European pre Christian religions (such as the Greek and Roman gods, the Norse Gods) are very much a part of Western culture. Books, movies, cartoons are all made out of them. Statues of them are all around, and universities often have departments or buildings named after them.

And you out of ignorance disparage the African gods. You prove the OP's point.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:52 AM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Please show maps that includes actual numbers.

Iíll come back when I have time with the evidences.

In the meant time, Iíll post this map from Atlas of World History. The figures are in thousands.



This other chart/map has a graph in the lower right. Notice the number of Africans imported to Spanish America (including the Spanish Caribbean) pales to the numbers imported in the English and French Americas. Donít forget to add the amounts of British North America to the English/French West Indies to get the full numbers for English/French America. I donít know why they always separate British North America from the total British American numbers. They never do that with Spanish America, despite that most of Spanish America didnít receive massive numbers of Africans. Its the weirdest thing.


https://pitt.libguides.com/c.php?g=12639&p=66892
That map shows most slaves going to Brazil.

Of course, one map is just one map. No one map shows the entire story........
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:55 AM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
No one treated their slaves "well" they were slaves and but the French and English treated their slaves worse. I was looking through genealogical records the other day and found obit and baptism records of slaves recorded in the same church records as noble families something the French or English wouldn't never do. Lots of Latin American free white men married former slaves as well there was a shortage of white women. You don't understand Latin America very well and these dumb videos don't clarify anything. You look really silly trying to school people on here.
The thing is, white Latinos are claiming that Spaniyards and Portuguese treated their slaves well. To even say this is offensive. You're speaking for experiences that you cannot have, as you are not Black and you certainly didn't come from an enslaved family.

Also you say very wrong things about US slavery, as you have just superficial knowledge of the US.
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