U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Americas
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-08-2019, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Northeast
227 posts, read 143,335 times
Reputation: 352

Advertisements

They should just change the Americas forum to the Dominican Republic forum and call it a day....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-08-2019, 01:35 PM
 
142 posts, read 33,635 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
But look at how the US and Canada turned out. The sole purpose for the West Indies was to produce sugarcane.

Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, are all great colonial cities. The US has the Ivy League, founded by English colonialist.
they became that AFTER THE BRITISH. by the time the Ivies where founded the latam universities were 200 years old.
Most on the american cities where builted when the Spanish era in america was ending.

Have you questioned from where all that anti-Spain bias come from?. the Black legend is a real phenomenon, Do not let yourself be a victim.

"The Black Legend, or the Spanish Black Legend, is a black legend which affected Spain, the Spanish Empire, and Latin America. According to the black-legend hypothesis, anti-Spanish propaganda before or during the 16th century was "absorbed and converted into broadly held stereotypes" which assumed that Spain was "uniquely evil." The assimilation of primarily English and German propaganda into mainstream history created an anti-Hispanic bias in subsequent historians and a distorted view of the history of Spain, Latin America, and other parts of the world."

Last edited by Snapshoot; 02-08-2019 at 01:48 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2019, 02:03 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 11 days ago)
 
5,166 posts, read 8,017,583 times
Reputation: 4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
You could go on ridiculous propaganda.

You sort of proved the point of the OP.

Spanish slavery nicer and humane?
You can claim whatever you want, but I’m simply quoting what people that were alive back then were saying, not what you or me or anyone from modern times would had liked for them to say. You see, its your word against theirs.

You do have the freedom of going back in time (I don’t know how) and tell them to not say or write the things that they did, because you know better than they do about what they witnessed and knew of their own time.

Keep us updated.

Oh yes, please don’t forget to tell Mr Moreau de Saint-Mery, yes that French colonist of Haiti who in his writings of the Spanish part (based on his months long visit to that side and further investigations) show an anti-Spanish sentiment, to not say that the Spanish gave a better treatment to the blacks, as he does here:



I don’t know him personally as you do, but I’m sure he would be willing to put aside reality and take into account your modern sensibilities.

Also, tell him that you don’t like it where he recites the reasons for why many slaves of the French deserted to the Spanish part (at times the runaway slaves are referred to as fugitives, not from the law but from their owners):



Tell him that you don’t want it to be true that after the Spaniards paid lip service to the French about letting the French enter Spanish territory to get their runaway slaves, once the Spaniards noticed that the French were entering in search of their slaves the Spaniards told the runaway slaves that the French were coming to give them a heads up and possibility of running further away.




Don’t forget to tell him that you know better than him that those tyrannical and horrible Spaniards certainly did not confronted the group of French that arrived to the Spanish territory to get their runaway slaves. Tell him that the Spaniards didn’t gave the slaves weapons so they can defend themselves and that the Spaniards never insisted that the runaway slaves of the French were FREE (the custom was that runaway slaves from foreign nations were given their freedom as soon as they stepped on Spanish soil) and the French HAD NO RIGHT TO TAKE A FREE PEOPLE BACK TO THE FRENCH PART TO SUBJECTED BACK TO SLAVERY.




I could go on citing many more sources, but I think I made my point.

As for how far back will you have to go, well he published his two-volume description of the Spanish part of the island in the 1790’s. You got quite some time travel to do.

He also published an equally exhaustive two-volume description of the French part, but there he does describes the treatment of the slaves as how you wanted him to describe the Spaniards, except he speaks of his own French countrymen giving the Africans quite the royal treatment.

Again, keep us updated with whatever you are able to change from those eyewitnesses and contemporaries of those times. I’m a strong believer that you know a lot more than they do about what they saw and lived.

I would do anything to see you debate with him about why he wrote so badly of the way his own countrymen treated their blacks and didn’t wrote the same of the Spaniards, despite that he had an anti-Spanish sentiment through out his descriptions.

As hard as it may be for you to believe, but everything I’ve said in this thread I didn’t made them up.

Last edited by AntonioR; 02-08-2019 at 02:13 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2019, 02:12 PM
 
142 posts, read 33,635 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
You can claim whatever you want, but I’m simply quoting what people that were alive back then were saying, not what you or me or anyone from modern times would had liked for them to say. You see, its your word against theirs.

You do have the freedom of going back in time (I don’t know how) and tell them to not say or write the things that they did, because you know better than they do about what they witnessed and knew of their own time.

Keep us updated.

Oh yes, please don’t forget to tell Mr Moreau de Saint-Mery, yes that French colonist of Haiti who in his writings of the Spanish part (based on his months long visit to that side and further investigations) show an anti-Spanish sentiment, to not say that the Spanish gave a better treatment to the blacks, as he does here:



I don’t know him personally as you do, but I’m sure he would be willing to put aside reality and take into account your modern sensibilities.

Also, tell him that you don’t like it where he recites the reasons for why many slaves of the French deserted to the Spanish part (at times the runaway slaves are referred to as fugitives, not from the law but from their owners):



Tell him that you don’t want it to be true that after the Spaniards paid lip service to the French about letting the French enter Spanish territory to get their runaway slaves, once the Spaniards noticed that the French were entering in search of their slaves the Spaniards told the runaway slaves that the French were coming to give them a heads up and possibility of running further away.




Don’t forget to tell him that you know better than him that those tyrannical and horrible Spaniards certainly did not confronted the group of French that arrived to the Spanish territory to get their runaway slaves. Tell him that the Spaniards didn’t gave the slaves weapons so they can defend themselves and that the Spaniards never insisted that the runaway slaves of the French were FREE and the French HAD NO RIGHT TO TAKE A FREE PEOPLE BACK TO THE FRENCH PART TO SUBJECTED BACK TO SLAVERY.




I could go on citing many more sources, but I think I made my point.

As for how far back will you have to go, well he published his two-volume description of the Spanish part of the island in the 1790’s. You got quite some time travel to do.

He also published an equally exhaustive two-volume description of the French part, but there he does describes the treatment of the slaves as how you wanted him to describe the Spaniards, except he speaks of his own French countrymen giving the Africans quite the royal treatment.

Again, keep us updated with whatever you are able to change from those eyewitnesses and contemporaries of those times. I’m a strong believer that you know a lot more than they do about what they saw and lived.

I would do anything to see you debate with him about why he wrote so badly of the way his own countrymen treated their blacks and didn’t wrote the same of the Spaniards, despite that he had an anti-Spanish sentiment through out his descriptions.

I insist that a lot of people educated in the English speaking world are not aware that their view of Spain is biased, based on a British war tactic to discredit Spain and its people. For them is impossible that the Spanish treated the slaves better, despise the evidence. Specially int he case of the French. Even if the Spanish treated the slaves better, slavery lasted way longer than in the English colonies. Half a century longer.....

Lets have something clear, slavery was not an strongly held institution in the Spanish side of Hispaniola, those accounts are form 1723 and slavery was already a dead thing in that part of the island.

Last edited by Snapshoot; 02-08-2019 at 02:23 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2019, 02:17 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,229,093 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
In real historical research, you look at primary documents that are often hidden away in archives.

I found out I could get Spanish or Portuguese citizenship due to my Jewish last name (I'm African American). My last name is Jewish due to slavery, as an ancestor of mine was a slaveowner who knocked up his slave/maid.

The child's race was classified as mulatto. Up until 1910, the US census officially categorized mulattos as a separate race from Black people.

Mixed race people in the US historically were often better off. The white parent sometimes would leave their mixed race child money or pay for their education.

My second great grandfather owned a 50 acre farm. His grandfather was Jewish.

Howard University was formed for mulatto children in a time period in which white universities would not accept Blacks or other non whites, women, Catholics, or Jews. So when someone got their slave/maid pregnant, if they wanted the child to get an university education they sent them to Howard, especially.

Obviously the former President is mixed race. Mulatto today in the US would be considered an offensive, racist word, so no one was going to call Obama than (even most racists). Similarly, Halle Berry, the first Black woman to win an Oscar, was mixed race. Many of the civil rights activists (Thurgood Marshall, first Black Supreme Court justice) were also mixed race.

So yes, Americans DO make the distinction, and it DOES happen here clearly.
None of this relates to the one drop rule or Afro-centrism but okay the part about your Jewish slave owning ancestor is interesting.

1. What was the surname and which US state?

2. Can't find your post about my knowledge being superficial you wrote on some other post which I'm not going to spend time digging up. You didn't specify what you're talking about. Some of your posts about Slavery in the Iberian peninsula and Latin America as well as Sephardic Jews aren't factual but I don't care enough about what you post to correct you.

3. Nope I'm not black and never claimed to be but you're not a Spaniard or a Jew either and post on those topics

Last edited by AFP; 02-08-2019 at 02:25 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2019, 03:02 PM
 
3,499 posts, read 4,954,121 times
Reputation: 3488
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineDeCoeur View Post
Agree that those groups do not and should not reject their European heritage. It is a major part of their heritage and culture and, in many cases, the predominant part of their heritage.

To be clear though, only the Dominican Republic abolished slavery early. Slavery did not end in Venezuela until the 1850s, well after the English-speaking Caribbean. The decline of slavery was gradual there. There were still over 20,000 slaves at the time of actual abolition in the 1850s. Cuba did not end slavery until the 1880s.


And Brazil only abolished slavery in 1888.

Brazil received many, many times the number of slaves that the USA ever did. In fact, northeastern Brazil is much closer to Africa by ship. In ancient times, it's conjectured that Brazil and West Africa were all one land mass.

But today, Brazil has only 2 or 3 times the black population of the USA. (although I know, it's hard to define race in Brazil.) Brazilian slaves typically died young, and left behind fewer descendants than U.S. slaves. As inhumane and sometimes brutal as American slavery was, Brazilian slaves were treated worse. Elderly slaves in Brazil who could no longer work, were usually left out the wilderness to starve. They were not fed and kept on the plantation, as slaves were in the USA.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2019, 03:36 PM
 
142 posts, read 33,635 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowlane3 View Post
[/b]

And Brazil only abolished slavery in 1888.

Brazil received many, many times the number of slaves that the USA ever did. In fact, northeastern Brazil is much closer to Africa by ship. In ancient times, it's conjectured that Brazil and West Africa were all one land mass.

But today, Brazil has only 2 or 3 times the black population of the USA. (although I know, it's hard to define race in Brazil.) Brazilian slaves typically died young, and left behind fewer descendants than U.S. slaves. As inhumane and sometimes brutal as American slavery was, Brazilian slaves were treated worse. Elderly slaves in Brazil who could no longer work, were usually left out the wilderness to starve. They were not fed and kept on the plantation, as slaves were in the USA.
THe US has received way more black immigration than Brazil,
in NYC for example is becoming difficult to find a black american that is not of west Indian decent, at least in Brooklyn.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-08-2019, 05:26 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,870 posts, read 1,544,263 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
I have clarified to him that all his assumptions about why Dominicans act the why the act are wrong. Explained to him that Dominicans use indio as an skin color not a race, and provided a DR iD as evidence.
Tell that to Juan Rodriguez, DR's previous minister of culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
he claims Dominican want to pass as Indians and overly celebrate their Taino heritage
I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that in the colonial caste system, and this goes for all of Latin America, native peoples have historically been seen as marginally better than black people due in part to their status as the original inhabitants of these lands. Heck even some "royal" members of pre-columbian empires were given residence and a high tier education back in Europe where they eventually resided and married into the elite. Also systematically more lands and rights had been awarded to the Native American peoples than to the black community throughout history.

Hence historically the term 'indio' is a deliberate constitutional term to play down the African imprint on society at an institutional and governmental level. You can continue to be oblivious to this fact if you wish.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2019, 03:35 AM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
None of this relates to the one drop rule or Afro-centrism but okay the part about your Jewish slave owning ancestor is interesting.

1. What was the surname and which US state?

2. Can't find your post about my knowledge being superficial you wrote on some other post which I'm not going to spend time digging up. You didn't specify what you're talking about. Some of your posts about Slavery in the Iberian peninsula and Latin America as well as Sephardic Jews aren't factual but I don't care enough about what you post to correct you.

3. Nope I'm not black and never claimed to be but you're not a Spaniard or a Jew either and post on those topics
I am indeed a Spaniyard. Citizenship, plus I live here.

BA in Latin American history, and at the masters level I did a lot of historical research too(MA in English history).

I know much more about Spanjsh history than the average Iberian.

Re: the fact that up until 1910 that “mulattoes” were classified separately from
Blacks on census forms, plus the fact you’ve historically had many mixed race people be the first Black perdón to be whatever shows you are simply wrong and do not know about anything about US history.

By the way, to be approved to even apply for Sephardic citizenship Jewish historians vet you genealogy and issue the certificate of Sephardic origin. Essentially you have to become a member of certain Sephardic synagogues.

So as Spain restored the citizenship of dead Sephardic Jews, their descendants inherit the ancestors citizenship. Ditto in Portugal. No different from when my family inherited a portion of my 4th great granddaddy’s estate. It was mine by right, by simple matter of inheritance law.

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 02-09-2019 at 04:42 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2019, 03:36 AM
 
24,192 posts, read 17,574,394 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
THe US has received way more black immigration than Brazil,
in NYC for example is becoming difficult to find a black american that is not of west Indian decent, at least in Brooklyn.
That’s just NYC. Caribbean people are rare in most of the nation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Americas
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top