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Old 02-09-2019, 12:45 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,230,790 times
Reputation: 5878

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
This! Well said.

Although I don't agree with you on many things I definitely feel the exact same distasteful nature of the ideas being pedaled here. Whilst of course AntonioR's historical accounts are valid anectdotally, it's such a low bar its preposterous to say this is a reason for attitudes nowadays.
I don't think anyone is disputing that point if we judge owning slaves by modern day western values.
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Old 02-09-2019, 01:42 PM
 
24,195 posts, read 17,579,330 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
1.Most likely such an ancestor doesn't exist which is why you won't post the surname.

2. Are we supposed to be impressed by your purported degrees they haven't helped much with your writing. It isn't interesting.

3. You're latching onto the Mulatto bite sized piece of information apparently you believe you are demonstrating some sort of expertise with this rant. But okay I guess it's the narcissism trying to make of for perceived shortcomings.

4. Again you're ranting and looking rather foolish but okay I'm guessing you actually think your opinions are of some value to me, מַזָּל טוֹב with your endeavors of trying to impress.

5. Again your purported Sephardic and Spanish ancestry is betrayed by occasional slip ups and "your Black southern heritage occasionally peeks through" your a bit conflicted but that makes you occasionally mildly entertaining.

6. Apparently your slave owning ancestor was one of those nice one's you latch onto his ethnic identity for whatever personal reasons. Yes I know Rabbi's determine who is a Jew and whose not and I'm familiar with the criteria I know a couple of people who have gone to Israel and been converted.

7. Carry on I have some sunshine to enjoy the entertainment value of your post give me a couple of laughs but I now have more interesting things to do I've had my coffee and a couple of laughs.

Have a good.
This is your very elongated way of admitting you were not qualified to speak in aforementioned subjects.

Re: my ancestor, it’s all about his money, which is my money.......

And the broader Sephardic community has been very welcoming. I’ve even attended synagogue services regularly.
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Old 02-09-2019, 01:46 PM
 
24,195 posts, read 17,579,330 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing that point if we judge owning slaves by modern day western values.
Some of you certainly weee disputing that point. If something is wrong, it is wrong period. Just as thereís no such thing as a good Nazi or a good rapists thereís no such thing as a good slaveowner.
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:51 PM
AFP
 
6,898 posts, read 4,230,790 times
Reputation: 5878
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
This is your very elongated way of admitting you were not qualified to speak in aforementioned subjects. :)

Re: my ancestor, itís all about his money, which is my money.......

And the broader Sephardic community has been very welcoming. Iíve even attended synagogue services regularly.

1. If it helps you sleep better at night to believe that then by all means.

2. This statement is directly contradicted by the next one.
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:48 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 12 days ago)
 
5,170 posts, read 8,019,848 times
Reputation: 4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
I don't think anyone is disputing that point if we judge owning slaves by modern day western values.
Exactly, if we judge the past with modern day values (not just western ones), its condemnable. The problem is that we are talking about a time when the prevailing values were different from today. For this reason alone, judging the distant past with today’s morality is ridiculous. Imagine those people of the distant future that will look upon us as horrible generations for maintaining animals as pets. The morality of the future has zero effect on today and it doesn’t explain what is acceptable today. That guy goes into some tangents that are incredible, as if that’s going to change anything about the past.

I know he’s going to hate the following citations I’m going to make too, but it is what it is. Its not as if these are my opinions based on what I witnessed, because I wasn’t alive back then. I’m just the messenger bringing forth what people that lived in those times and in those places said about life back then (or cited those that lived it). Like I said before, he will have to do some time travel if he wants for things back then to change to how he wished them to be. Until then, the words of the people that were alive back then have greater weights than his or anyone else’s from today, myself included.

He’s not going to like this, but the truth doesn’t depend on how he wanted things to be everywhere in the past.


The following is from William Walton in 1810 (English colonist of Jamaica that spent considerable time in Spanish America, particularly in Santo Domingo).


The following is from Charles Mackenzie (English General-Consul, what today would be called an Ambassador, in Haiti in the 1820’s). In 1827 he made an islandwide excursion and wrote about it. From 1822 to 1844 the entire island was under Haitian rule, including the Dominican part). He’s describing what he found in Santiago de los Caballeros well past the official end of slavery in what is now the Dom Rep.


This one is of Mackenzie too, this time describing a change in interracial relationships as he found them Santiago, quite a contrast to the frictions he witnessed in the western (Haitian) part of the island. For the sake of not altering the peace of some here, lets all pretend that the better treatment given to the slaves had nothing to do with this difference.


Samuel Hazard in 1871 describing the obvious to anyone well acquainted with Dominican history.


The following was originally published by Gustave D’alaux in French. This is the translated version done by John H Parkhill and published in 1861.


Another part from D’alaux.



As much as some people don’t want to accept it, those were different times. In addition, it was very different depending on the place. We can pretend this was not true, except that it was and it will continue to be the reality of those particular times and in those particular places regardless who likes it or not!

Everything I posted in this thread are not inventions from my part and there are too many sources at my disposal (in fact, several shelves full of historical books, most out of print that were reprinted upon my own request) where the same appears over and over, way too many from people from those times for it all to be a lie.

Good night!
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,558 posts, read 2,427,412 times
Reputation: 2738
Slavery is inhumane - period. It is true that the Spanish were more lax at times in certain territories, one of them being the Dominican Republic. However, at the end of the day, the Spanish still took Africans from their homes on the continent and enslaved them in the Americas. The Africans still largely lost their cultures, languages and religions under the Spanish. The Spanish also enslaved in Amerindians and were responsible for so many of their lives lost. Today the only pure Amerindians left in the Caribbean are in Dominica, a formerly French/British territory. That in itself is despicable and should never be repeated.

Lastly, why post false information about slave revolts? There were multiple slave revolts in Cuba, one of the most well known being in 1825. The revolts continued over and over until the 1840s. In Puerto Rico, there were slave revolts from the late 1700s through to the end of slavery there in 1873. The Dominican Republic’s first slave revolt was in the early 1500s and multiple followed. The environment changed significantly later on.

Again, slavery is inhumane and Africans did not simply accept the inhumane treatment - anywhere.
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Old 02-10-2019, 06:24 AM
 
24,195 posts, read 17,579,330 times
Reputation: 9149
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Exactly, if we judge the past with modern day values (not just western ones), its condemnable. The problem is that we are talking about a time when the prevailing values were different from today. For this reason alone, judging the distant past with todayís morality is ridiculous. Imagine those people of the distant future that will look upon us as horrible generations for maintaining animals as pets. The morality of the future has zero effect on today and it doesnít explain what is acceptable today. That guy goes into some tangents that are incredible, as if thatís going to change anything about the past.

I know heís going to hate the following citations Iím going to make too, but it is what it is. Its not as if these are my opinions based on what I witnessed, because I wasnít alive back then. Iím just the messenger bringing forth what people that lived in those times and in those places said about life back then (or cited those that lived it). Like I said before, he will have to do some time travel if he wants for things back then to change to how he wished them to be. Until then, the words of the people that were alive back then have greater weights than his or anyone elseís from today, myself included.

Heís not going to like this, but the truth doesnít depend on how he wanted things to be everywhere in the past.


The following is from William Walton in 1810 (English colonist of Jamaica that spent considerable time in Spanish America, particularly in Santo Domingo).


The following is from Charles Mackenzie (English General-Consul, what today would be called an Ambassador, in Haiti in the 1820ís). In 1827 he made an islandwide excursion and wrote about it. From 1822 to 1844 the entire island was under Haitian rule, including the Dominican part). Heís describing what he found in Santiago de los Caballeros well past the official end of slavery in what is now the Dom Rep.


This one is of Mackenzie too, this time describing a change in interracial relationships as he found them Santiago, quite a contrast to the frictions he witnessed in the western (Haitian) part of the island. For the sake of not altering the peace of some here, lets all pretend that the better treatment given to the slaves had nothing to do with this difference.


Samuel Hazard in 1871 describing the obvious to anyone well acquainted with Dominican history.


The following was originally published by Gustave Díalaux in French. This is the translated version done by John H Parkhill and published in 1861.


Another part from Díalaux.



As much as some people donít want to accept it, those were different times. In addition, it was very different depending on the place. We can pretend this was not true, except that it was and it will continue to be the reality of those particular times and in those particular places regardless who likes it or not!

Everything I posted in this thread are not inventions from my part and there are too many sources at my disposal (in fact, several shelves full of historical books, most out of print that were reprinted upon my own request) where the same appears over and over, way too many from people from those times for it all to be a lie.

Good night!
Number one, you post things and opinions written by white man. Show me something where a Black person is jumping up and down happy that they were enslaved by the Spanish. Or show me something that was written by a Native that they were conquered and massacred by the Spanish.

You cannot because these things do not exist.

Slavery is inhumane and a crime against humanity, PERIOD.

Conquest is brutal and violent.

You also conveniently left out huge parts of Spanish and Latin American history. The Inquisition was going on, and those who were found to be practicing Judaism or Islam were burned at the STAKE.

And yes, those busted practicing an African based religion could be burned at the stake.

Yet you LIE about the conditions of people of African descent in the Spanish colonies, all to give yourself/White Latin Americans some sort of weird boost. You reduce Africans to pet horses, who can be treated "better" than their by the owners. The ultimate in erasure and dehumanization, because notice you are not quoting Black Latin Americans.

There is no humane way to have a slave, period.

But back to your messages, you only select things written by white men. We'll talk when you post things written from that time period by Blacks or Natives re: conditions in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies.
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:44 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,875 posts, read 1,545,141 times
Reputation: 1616
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
This one is of Mackenzie too, this time describing a change in interracial relationships as he found them Santiago, quite a contrast to the frictions he witnessed in the western (Haitian) part of the island. For the sake of not altering the peace of some here, lets all pretend that the better treatment given to the slaves had nothing to do with this difference.
Yes, and like it says in your source, "I was not a little amused in the contemptuous mode even the blacks speak of their western neighbours as "aquellos negros" "

Sure, them (Haitian) black, We "indio".
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Old 02-10-2019, 05:18 PM
 
Location: London, UK
2,875 posts, read 1,545,141 times
Reputation: 1616
Colombia's annual literary 'i-festival event', this year focused on African Literature. Chimamanda Adichie was the headline guest.

Report presented by Colombian journalist, Liliana Valencia for France 24 en espaŮol.

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Old 02-10-2019, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Caribbean
7,558 posts, read 2,427,412 times
Reputation: 2738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
Colombia's annual literary 'i-festival event', this year focused on African Literature. Chimamanda Adichie was the headline guest.

Report presented by Colombian journalist, Liliana Valencia for France 24 en espaŮol.

Very nice.
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