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Old 03-14-2019, 07:23 PM
 
3,161 posts, read 3,353,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Perhaps I mistook you for another poster then. If that’s the case than I apologise for this.




That hardly constitutes proof. Had the US been the sole country to do so, you would have a valid argument. Many countries have done so. It’s not like countries just blindly follow whatever the US does or else we’d have embassies all over Jerusalem.



With the exception of Salman who rules over SA, all the other countries I mentioned do exhibit certain levels of democratic traits. Russia, Turkey, Israel, Brazil all have elected officials.






Opposition’s exist in most of the nations I’ve mentioned. It just so happens that like in Venezuela, they are given little legroom to operate. As long as they tie the line they are fine, but otherwise they are labelled as “foreign puppets’. It’s a common tactic used by dictators around the world to hold on to power.

Maduro has accrued so much wealth over the years that his cause is losing support. While Venezuelans were starving he was prancing around having expensive meals abroad. Chavez’s kids have also gathered a lot of money over the years.

The only regimes that back him are those who express solidarity with the Chavista cause (Bolivia and Cuba namely). Russia for pragmatic purposes and China because of its investment. Even Mexico, with its new left leaning president has decided to take a neutral approach.

Don’t you find it interesting that none of the South Americans who frequent this board have spoken highly of him.




That part is sadly true.
Very much proof enough for me, at any rate. Other countries came on board on US encouragement. (as they did in the so termed 'Coalition of the Willing') Little skin lost for most countries that followed American lead. It was too obvious, the mass movement at the same time.


Glad to mention Israel, and the embassy debacle. That's where the Europeans (and others)drew a line in the sand, and kicked back. The political/economic repercussions and ill will such a move would create, made it not feasible. The Aussies, in a moment of 'All the way with USA' came close to following suit, but pulled back over regional concerns expressed by neighbours. Also Israel's insistence on the wording. Apparently it had to be Jerusalem in its entirety, not just a section.


The White House phones would have been running hot, the night prior. Democratic credentials are increasingly varied in definition these days, in times of ever more authoritarianism, exercised in different ways, but amounting to similar results in many cases.


Venezuela, as mentioned previously in my post, has one of the best histories with regards to democracy within the South American continent. You may recall Chavez and hi Party was elected by the masses on a few occasions, only over time to be forced to counter an ever more hostile America.
I suppose it only stands to reason the ever increasing anxiety felt by the administration there resulting in tighter controls and failing economy, due in part from outside boycotts and in part from over extending and poor management of its own making.


Sort of appears to go with the job. Regardless of country or type of administration. A reason so much respect for Uruguay's former leader, a man who lived the talk. An example for many a leader, but who few will follow, as a good life are part of the spoils of power.

Thing is Maduro does indeed remain in power. A fact that must annoy Washington intensely. The revolt that was supposed to come about from internal upheaval has not resulted. The military has remained stead fast, by and large. The propaganda displayed over a few deserters at the Colombian border amounted as of now, to nothing.
Perhaps it was the obvious US involvement that has galvanised large segments of the population to hold on?


Same as his support comes from rather obvious sources. Ecuador and Brazil would have likely been amongst them until regime change recently.


I find it totally irrelevant that 'South American' posters don't support the regime in Venezuela. Why would I? Are they South American? Are they living in US? Perhaps then anti left leaning governments, just as a lot of the Cubans are in FL. Do many even write on such a forum in English, if not so familiar with the language?
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,845 posts, read 9,487,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Perhaps, though I still think Maduro is dumber.
Probably. They're both dumb as nails.

Quote:
The main difference being that the US being as powerful as it is, can somewhat afford to have a moron in office. Venezuela, on the other hand can’t.
Well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troubadour View Post
It's not about whether Maduro is a democrat, he clearly isn't. Nor if he's a nice guy, probably isn't . But he remains in power with such chaos going on around him.
He is the cause of the chaos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
So why should I visit Venezuela and not you?
How about you go live in Venezuela, and after a couple months we'll see if you continue to hold the same opinions.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
715 posts, read 680,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Don’t you find it interesting that none of the South Americans who frequent this board have spoken highly of him.
Indeed, and I’ll go further. Surfing the social media I’ve consistently found how opinions on the Venezuelan government tend to be extremely negative among Spanish speakers, whereas there is much more split opinions in more international environments (in both cases, I’m not talking about extremist or marginal media hubs, but rather regular and often well moderated ones).

The latter is a bit worrisome to me, as I identify this as a severe flaw in communication: somehow there is a lot of missing information that is completed by preceding knowledge and established ideas, and the conclusion drawn is out of place. It makes sense, as everyone builds their reality in base on the finite amount of information they can get, then proceeding to fill in the blanks. But some pieces of vital information are not there, hence the completion ends up being a failure.

People from Latin America have listened to Chavez and Maduro uncountable times, have followed and heard about the social, economic and political situation of Venezuela for years, can relate many problems with their owns thanks to the many cultural similarities, and maybe most importantly, Venezuelan diaspora is big (and getting bigger) and easily assimilated in Latin America, so many people already have Venezuelan acquaintances and friends who have shared their experiences. All of this is mostly lacking outside Latin America.

Not that this makes an opinion the truth, but it helps a lot to draw a bigger picture. Certaintly Maduro (and Chavismo) holds some support in various degrees among quite a few people in Latin America. The only hardcore support, however, comes from the most radical settings, spilled with heavy conspiracionism and overall delusion. To sum up, the ideological profile of Maduro supporters out of Latin America is much wider than the ones from Latin America (and probably Spain), and this is caused by the moderately low or limited access to all the evidence that shows Maduro (and Chavismo).
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
976 posts, read 1,967,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I think you will find Kim very admired in his own country. I mean God like admired. So why should I visit Venezuela and not you? Perhaps an on the ground report could shed light on why the military continues to back the government and much of the population, even under such appalling conditions, continue to support present government ? the internal revolt hoped for by outsiders, appears to have been grossly misjudged.


Other side of world? So are you living in the midst of it? Hardly relevant if not in possession of the facts.


It's not about whether Maduro is a democrat, he clearly isn't. Nor if he's a nice guy, probably isn't . But he remains in power with such chaos going on around him. Suggestive of it is not as clear cut as some make out.
I speak with Venezuelan refugees in Colombia on a daily basis. You live where, Australia?
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhc1985 View Post
there is much more split opinions in more international environments
That's cuz they're not living it.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
I speak with Venezuelan refugees in Colombia on a daily basis. You live where, Australia?
Hold up. Never been in denial that life if in any way 'cosy' in Venezuela. Life for, and as a refugee is hard, end off. Be that a Syrian, Iraqi, Congolese, to name a few.


Again it matters not an iota where I live. Nor whom you speak with. The overall picture of that nation, that even with such chaos, both instigated from inside and outside, that the government remains in place. Still holds the loyalty of the military and appears to maintain support of a large number of the population.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:33 PM
 
3,161 posts, read 3,353,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
That's cuz they're not living it.
Well no it is not. Just looking at the overview differently and seeing the reality. Not what would prefer to happen.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:42 PM
 
3,161 posts, read 3,353,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Probably. They're both dumb as nails.

Well said.

He is the cause of the chaos.

How about you go live in Venezuela, and after a couple months we'll see if you continue to hold the same opinions.
And who 'flamed ' further the spread of chaos? Why should I go and live in Venezuela for a few months?
You are appearing at a loss for words with own desired outcome, apparently not forthcoming.
Fact remains even under such chaos, those in control remain in control , the armed forces support those in control as do large numbers, apparently of the population.
Now just what opinions would change, you seem to infer, with a stay of one hour there? Let alone a couple of months. What I relate are simply the facts as stand at present.
I do not believe, such a state of affairs can continue indefinitely. But change has certainly not come about how outside forces expected and hoped it would. I really don't need to be on the ground to confirm that.
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Meredith NH
1,563 posts, read 2,293,973 times
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I've noticed that Troubadour has mentioned in several (of his many) posts that Trump is only involved to get his hands on the oil.FYI the USA has overtaken Saudi Arabia in oil and gas production and we are actually exporting now.
Leftist said the same thing about Iraq and Kuwait....only then it was the evil Bush that was after the oil but after the war was over Bush did not seize any of the oil production.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,845 posts, read 9,487,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Just looking at the overview differently and seeing the reality.
People in faraway countries who have never been near South America cannot understand or see the reality. I guarantee you that if you were to spend two months living in Venezuela, you would change your tune about your support/admiration for Maduro.
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