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Old 03-16-2019, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
975 posts, read 1,964,923 times
Reputation: 1026

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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Hold up. Never been in denial that life if in any way 'cosy' in Venezuela. Life for, and as a refugee is hard, end off. Be that a Syrian, Iraqi, Congolese, to name a few.


Again it matters not an iota where I live. Nor whom you speak with. The overall picture of that nation, that even with such chaos, both instigated from inside and outside, that the government remains in place. Still holds the loyalty of the military and appears to maintain support of a large number of the population.
It does matter who I talk to...I am still waiting on a Venezuelan to tell me that they support Maduro. Many, if not the vast majority, of Venezuelan refugees in Colombia were die-hard Chavistas. Never did they imagine that they´d have to dig through garbage trucks in Caracas just to eat, or cross the border into Cúcuta and beg for urgent medical attention in the ER of a public hospital. They love their country and bought the entire rhetoric of Chávez. They might have even voted for Maduro in 2013 because it´s what Hugo wanted, they thought.

Just last night my best friend came over and he played some Whatsapp voice notes from one of his friends who is still there, living in the east of the country (El Tigre). Even 5 years ago, this guy was doing well as an electrician, had plenty of money for a house, car, nightlife, etc. He said through tears how his baby son is malnourished; he used to smoke cigarettes to deal with the stress but can´t even afford to buy smokes anymore. He says that the blackout, which was more of an off again, on again brownout in that region, changed the psyche of the few people who still held on to faith. He said that there is a just a look of utter hopelessness and mounting anxiety on the faces of everyone he sees.

I don´t think Maduro is all that stupid. Sure, he´s run the country into the ground, but he knows who needs to keep getting food and other provisions...his military and National Guard. I´m not surprised that he has the loyalty of most of his military..it´s the only job they have. Though you are aware that several hundred have defected to Colombia, correct? He knows when to throw out more paranoid conspiracies to keep the small but radical cadre of supporters foaming at the mouth over their perceived enemies. For years now there have been massive protests that have been violently quashed by the National Guard:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YiQi32ihig

Leopoldo López is imprisoned. Henrique Capriles was barred from running in the last election. Steps are already being taken to try to do one or the other to Guiadó. I have no doubt that if a free, fair and transparent election were to be held today that any of these three guys would trounce Maduro. This of course will not happen, and we all know why.

So giant applause for Maduro because he´s still in power, if that´s your spiel, fine. It doesn´t mean that he has the support of the people. If resisting the United States´ "imperial yankee agenda" is what garners you admiration, I can point you in the direction of many functioning countries that do the same on a daily basis, but actually have functioning hospitals, enough to eat, real elections. etc. The reality that Venezuelans are living is horrific, and there´s nothing to admire at all about this tyrant and what he has done to the average person there.

Last edited by aab7855; 03-16-2019 at 12:57 PM..
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:36 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,346,209 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
It does matter who I talk to...I am still waiting on a Venezuelan to tell me that they support Maduro. Many, if not the vast majority, of Venezuelan refugees in Colombia were die-hard Chavistas. Never did they imagine that they´d have to dig through garbage trucks in Caracas just to eat, or cross the border into Cúcuta and beg for urgent medical attention in the ER of a public hospital. They love their country and bought the entire rhetoric of Chávez. They might have even voted for Maduro in 2013 because it´s what Hugo wanted, they thought.

Just last night my best friend came over and he played some Whatsapp voice notes from one of his friends who is still there, living in the east of the country (El Tigre). Even 5 years ago, this guy was doing well as an electrician, had plenty of money for a house, car, nightlife, etc. He said through tears how his baby son is malnourished; he used to smoke cigarettes to deal with the stress but can´t even afford to buy smokes anymore. He says that the blackout, which was more of an off again, on again brownout in that region, changed the psyche of the few people who still held on to faith. He said that there is a just a look of utter hopelessness and mounting anxiety on the faces of everyone he sees.

I don´t think Maduro is all that stupid. Sure, he´s run the country into the ground, but he knows who needs to keep getting food and other provisions...his military and National Guard. I´m not surprised that he has the loyalty of most of his military..it´s the only job they have. Though you are aware that several hundred have defected to Colombia, correct? He knows when to throw out more paranoid conspiracies to keep the small but radical cadre of supporters foaming at the mouth over their perceived enemies. For years now there have been massive protests that have been violently quashed by the National Guard:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YiQi32ihig

Leopoldo López is imprisoned. Henrique Capriles was barred from running in the last election. Steps are already being taken to try to do one or the other to Guiadó. I have no doubt that if a free, fair and transparent election were to be held today that any of these three guys would trounce Maduro. This of course will not happen, and we all know why.

So giant applause for Maduro because he´s still in power, if that´s your spiel, fine. It doesn´t mean that he has the support of the people. If resisting the United States´ "imperial yankee agenda" is what garners you admiration, I can point you in the direction of many functioning countries that do the same on a daily basis, but actually have functioning hospitals, enough to eat, real elections. etc. The reality that Venezuelans are living is horrific, and there´s nothing to admire at all about this tyrant and what he has done to the average person there.
My spiel being, The fact remains the American plan/wish to topple Maduro has come to nothing. And try they have. Would a person seeking refuge in another country praise the regime of a country fleeing? Be the first time, I've heard of such a thing, and know the area well.
Yet another 'intervention' that has only increased the pain and suffering. Yet many millions stay and struggle.
Your not surprised at the military? Is that right? If the military were so concerned with 'their future', they would have increasingly bailed ship. Hasn't happened. Well Venezuela is beyond a free and fair election for the foreseeable future. Corruption will be the feature on all sides.


I'd say what it does need is a strong government, with a make up to be decided, preferably among all parties willing to work together, with a , return over an extended period to democracy.
This should come from without foreign intervention, apart from perhaps UN , but not individual influence seeking countries.
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:40 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,346,209 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samiamnh View Post
I've noticed that Troubadour has mentioned in several (of his many) posts that Trump is only involved to get his hands on the oil.FYI the USA has overtaken Saudi Arabia in oil and gas production and we are actually exporting now.
Leftist said the same thing about Iraq and Kuwait....only then it was the evil Bush that was after the oil but after the war was over Bush did not seize any of the oil production.
Gosh here's me thinking American oil companies made a killing in Middle East after war end. Further the Brit's were none too happy being left out of business in the area either.


So if not about oil, in your view, what was it ? Or was it one of those can't tell scenario's?
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:45 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,346,209 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
People in faraway countries who have never been near South America cannot understand or see the reality. I guarantee you that if you were to spend two months living in Venezuela, you would change your tune about your support/admiration for Maduro.
People living far away from respondent who constantly score a 'please sit in front of class' request , should really not come to conclusions, with regards the travelling patterns of another. One in fact, that has been to close on every country in South America.


Best to pass comment on the actual post, rather than attempting to profile the author.
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Old 03-17-2019, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,827 posts, read 9,480,334 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
My spiel being, The fact remains the American plan/wish to topple Maduro has come to nothing.
Maduro will fall sooner, not later, whether it is from U.S. influence or otherwise. There is an old saying: if the people are not ready for revolution, nothing can be done to start one. When the people are ready for revolution, nothing can be done to stop it. This will come to pass in Venezuela.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
I don´t think Maduro is all that stupid.
Neither Trump nor Maduro are stupid in private. But the things they say in public are retarded, and I'm going to take what they say and continue to call them dumb as nails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Best to pass comment on the actual post, rather than attempting to profile the author.
Fair enough, my bad. But I still guarantee you that if you go live two months in Venezuela, you will no longer support Maduro.
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Old 03-17-2019, 05:42 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,346,209 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Maduro will fall sooner, not later, whether it is from U.S. influence or otherwise. There is an old saying: if the people are not ready for revolution, nothing can be done to start one. When the people are ready for revolution, nothing can be done to stop it. This will come to pass in Venezuela.

Neither Trump nor Maduro are stupid in private. But the things they say in public are retarded, and I'm going to take what they say and continue to call them dumb as nails.

Fair enough, my bad. But I still guarantee you that if you go live two months in Venezuela, you will no longer support Maduro.
Well it would no small miracle if indeed Maduro could hang on. I think the people were ready for a revolution on the election of Chavez. Days of revolution are over in Venezuela. Now it is a matter of ending severe hardship and chaos. I doubt the ordinary people have much in expectation. Why would they? Between a rock and a hard place.
I have no reason to live in Venezuela to come to a conclusion just hard a place it is to survive. My take being the added hardship imposed from outside on an already suffering people. I do not believe one has to be made feel worse to feel better.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,827 posts, read 9,480,334 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
My take being the added hardship imposed from outside on an already suffering people. I do not believe one has to be made feel worse to feel better.
Correct. The problem I have with the U.S. (or any other country) meddling in other countries' affairs is that usually it ends up making the local people feel worse and suffer more.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:44 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,346,209 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Correct. The problem I have with the U.S. (or any other country) meddling in other countries' affairs is that usually it ends up making the local people feel worse and suffer more.
Akin to removing a leg for an ingrown toe nail, that causing pain. When the correct process should be not to increase the trauma, but to help relieve the pain, with the likelihood that better days are ahead.


Time and time again, the people are but pawns, purely collateral damage, with main concern winning the ideological battle.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:00 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 2,318,493 times
Reputation: 5979
The Russians landed a lot of people from the military in Venezuela. A whole HQ? Few details.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:09 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,346,209 times
Reputation: 1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
The Russians landed a lot of people from the military in Venezuela. A whole HQ? Few details.
About a hundred from accounts I've read. It could be in order to protect Russian interests, in case of complete civil breakdown, such as embassy, or a message that they will attempt to store up support for present government. Time will tell, but far more troops needed to change too much. I was wondering why Cuban forces have not been sent. They have been rather effective in African campaigns last century.
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