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Old 05-05-2019, 12:37 PM
 
718 posts, read 478,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
And yet, according to your previous post, countries that did suffer a debt crisis and had leftist governments at some point are better off.


From a Colombian source.


Despite economic growth, Colombia continues to be one of the most unequal countries in the world

the countries that had leftist goverments are worse off, comparatively speaking. I mean, Colombia has been "shortening distance" to them in the past years. As Pueblofuerte said, Brazil was much wealthier than Colombia, like almost 2x as wealthier, now Colombia has almost caught up. Argentina was waay wealthier; now Colombia's GDP per capita PPP is like 75% that of Argentina, something unthinkable 30 years ago. Ecuador, Peru and Colombia had a very similar GDP per capita 8 years ago or so, now Peru and Colombia's per capita is like 50% higher than that of Ecuador. Venezuela... well.



Other countries like Uruguay don't really have a left government. Frente Amplio is pro-investment, they have created free zones (zonas francas) to encourage the arrival of investments in areas such as software development. Mining and forestry companies have arrived to the country. Chile has more free trade agreements than any other LatAm country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
The Right in Colombia have been the scourge of the country for decades. If I blame the Chavistas for soeing a climate of repression, censorship, division & violence, I do the same for the Right in Colombia.

The banana workers massacre in Cienaga and the rise of Guerilla insurgents after the assassination of Jorge Eliecer Gaitan, the rise of drug cartel Mafias amongst the poor communities are all the fault of a ruthless, incompetent Right. Practically all of Colombia's ills can be traced back these two historic and one bloody opportunity/cost set of events.

Although I couldn't stomach myself to vote for Petro, I encouraged everyone I knew to do so, confident that he wasn't going to win. My argument was vote for him to shake the establishment but make sure you vote him out in 4 years.

We need a strong centrist government which Colombia has the talent to produce in bucket loads. In this aspect we are the envy of the world at the moment which is seeing the centre collapse with lacklustre leaders, we just need to harness this potential. Fajardo was too wishy washy but he lead a pool of so much political talent and activism especially among millenials and gen-z. Claudia Lopez is someone with guts and I would vote for her as president in a heart-beat. Colombia needs a strong centrist government with an emphasis on the rule of law and responsible enterprise in order for th country to finally heal and create opportunities.

As for Colombia being an unequal society, it's actually dropped from 2nd most unequal in the world to out of the top 10 although for 2018 under Duque it's risen again. Duque is another dudd president, he's so enveloped in "reforming" the JEP that he doesn't have a clue what he's doing with so many more important issues that face the country.

Even in the Right's jewel of good macroeconomic policy (e.g. Colombia has never devalued/revalued its currency in its history unlike other Latin American countries) and so called "Democratic Security", Duque is failing miserably.

Colombia has always had centrist governments. During most of the XX century the economic policy was very anti-free trade, that's why so many analyst talk about the "Tibetanism" of Colombia. Violence is related to other factors, not to the economic orientation of the Government, and has always been present over the 200 years of the country's Republican history, much before the concepts of left and right were even a thing.


lets look at a couple of presidents of the Partido Conservador and what they did. Misael Pastrana: during his government, he executed the "colombianización del patrimonio del país" and intervened oil companies. He also carried on with the Agrary Reform program of precedent governments. Guillermo León Valencia: developed large housing plans, without "cuota inicial", subsidized medicaments for the poor, increased Government spending in education from 10% to 20%.


the drug cartel mafias are the "rights" fault? I didn't know Farc, ELN and other guerrillas were so right wing.

The economic right as we know it today appears with Reagan, Thatcher etc but it hasn't really been implemented here; since "Apertura" the country has preserved a mixed economy with a strong State interference in many things. Bussiness taxation rates are among the highest in Latin America. Tariff system is very complicated. Many sectors of the economy are heavily subsidized.


Petro couldn't be anything anti-establishment, being under current investigation for several corruption schemes in Bogota. He's also a caudillo, another authoritarian, mesianic politician just as Chávez or Uribe. He's always playing the victim or blaming "oligarchs" or whatever when someone points out his mistakes.

Last edited by joacocanal; 05-05-2019 at 01:02 PM..
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
It happens in these situations. Crewmen panic and with no good vision take off and hit people.
Or get pissed off and deliberately hit people. Anyway, Maduro's not going to last for long.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
none, thankfully. Colombia would be much poorer and underdeveloped if that was the case, but it's just an average country in terms of wealth and development, despite of civil war and violence. Compared to almost all countries in the World with civil war, guerrillas etc, Colombia is one of the most developed. And that's partially because of its sound economic policies, independency of the Central Bank, inflation control etc. Speaking of the Latin American debt crisis, Colombia didn't suffer it as much as other countries in the region.
One of the few statements you've made that's true. Actually you're doing quite well in the past few pages of this thread - you've decided to ground yourself in reality for a change.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
If Guiado were locked up, would that bring peace to Venezuela?
The main thing people are unhappy with is their situation - not so much with who is in charge. Locking him up won't change their situation, so no, it won't bring any peace to the country because their situation is going to stay the same. You talk to Venezuelans they will tell you that the goverment has acabado con ese pais, they blame their power outages, inflation, lack of running water, etc on the govt.
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
One of the few statements you've made that's true. Actually you're doing quite well in the past few pages of this thread - you've decided to ground yourself in reality for a change.

No he hasn't. The only thing he has done is bash the left. He has blamed all the ills of Latin America and Colombia on the left. He is bascially excusing the right for being a failure in Latin America.

Quote:
the drug cartel mafias are the "rights" fault? I didn't know Farc, ELN and other guerrillas were so right wing.
As bad as these groups might be, they never controlled the majority of drug trafficking in Colombia.

https://www.insightcrime.org/colombi...s/auc-profile/ (we have seen this all over Latin America)
Quote:
The United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia – AUC) was a coalition of right-wing death squads that used the conflict to camouflage their illicit economic activities. These included drug trafficking, displacement, kidnapping, and extortion. The AUC once operated in two-thirds of the country with approximately 30,000 soldiers.

History
The origins of the paramilitaries go back to the early 1980s, when drug traffickers, facing a wave of kidnappings by leftist guerrilla groups, decided to create a death squad they called Death to Kidnappers (Muerte a Secuestradores – MAS). This illegal group assassinated not just the kidnappers, but also any supposed member of the rebels’ infrastructure, which included many innocent civilians, activists, union leaders and politicians. Later, “self-defense” groups emerged, some of them initiated by Colombian army officers and politicians who called for the population to organize in their own defense. Many of them were legally constituted. However, rather than protect civilians from the transgressions of the guerrillas, many of the groups simply worked for drug traffickers, at the behest of large landholders, or both. The alliance with these powerful economic interests gave paramilitary groups access to weapons, cars and communications equipment, but it distorted their original purpose.
It is no secret right politicians had ties to paramilitaries. Maybe even Duque and you would have to be naive Uribe didn't.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-am...est-hardships/
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,858 posts, read 9,490,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
No he hasn't. The only thing he has done is bash the left. He has blamed all the ills of Latin America and Colombia on the left. He is bascially excusing the right for being a failure in Latin America.
I missed that. I skimmed the political stuff, wasn't paying much attention.
Quote:
As bad as these groups might be, they never controlled the majority of drug trafficking in Colombia.
They don't control the drug trafficking, true. But, some of those groups are heavily involved in it.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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Not everybody is hurting in Venezuela.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PYQIq7zW5L8
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:45 AM
 
718 posts, read 478,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post

As bad as these groups might be, they never controlled the majority of drug trafficking in Colombia.

They do, guerrillas have always been the main drug cartels in Colombia, and anyone knows that to the point that is one of the main reasons why the left is so disliked by most Colombians, rightfully or unrightfully so.


the main drug cartels in Colombia now are still guerrillas along with criminal groups like Clan Úsuga, which are actually their allies, and they have strong support from the Venezuelan government.


but it doesn't matter, drug trafficking is not really an idelogical (left/right) issue. Drug dealers don't follow any ideology or don't really support any party. Drug trafficking as a phenomena has many cultural, economical and sociopolitical edges.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post
They do, guerrillas have always been the main drug cartels in Colombia, and anyone knows that to the point that is one of the main reasons why the left is so disliked by most Colombians, rightfully or unrightfully so.
That is simply not true. Medellin cartel were leftist guerrillas? Cali cartel? etc etc......What about MAS? AUC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joacocanal View Post

Quote:

but it doesn't matter, drug trafficking is not really an idelogical (left/right) issue. Drug dealers don't follow any ideology or don't really support any party. Drug trafficking as a phenomena has many cultural, economical and sociopolitical edges.
True but right wing polticians in LATAM often have ties to narcos. Lets not try to play that down, there are many examples.

https://www.semana.com/opinion/artic...trafico/468598

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaci...el_de_Medellín
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