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Old 02-28-2019, 04:30 AM
 
Location: London, UK
2,876 posts, read 1,549,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
This may have been the natural progression of things, if Guido, had agreed to allow the brokage of talks arranged by Vatican or other outsiders.
It's cute that you actually think that. There were talks when the opposition won the national assembly. What happened then? They were stripped of all their powers.

The Maduro regime has only one goal, to entrench itself in power backed by loans for assets from China and Russia. Intervention of resources is already there, signaling the US as the interventionist seeking out the oil when China & Russia already have their hands on it is double standards.

Maduro has seen Assad, he knows there's little appetite for interventionism following the toll & failures of Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya. The alternative is prison time and leaving the lap of luxury his administration currently enjoy.

Last edited by Pueblofuerte; 02-28-2019 at 05:57 AM..
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Old 02-28-2019, 04:53 AM
 
3,136 posts, read 3,349,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
It's cute that you actually think that. There were talks when the opposition won the national assembly. What happened then? They were stripped of all their powers.

The Maduro regime has only one goal, to entrench itself in power backed by loans for assets from China and Russia. Intervention of resources is already there, signaling the US as the interventionist speaking out the oil when China & Russia already have their hands on it is double standards.

Maduro has seen Assad, he knows there's little appetite for interventionism following the toll & failures of Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya. The alternative is prison time and leaving the lap of luxury his administration currently enjoy.
No the cuteness lays in attempts to destabilise the elected Venezuelan government, for ideological reasons from the very beginning.
When a country is destabilised through outside interference, only stands to reason its allows les than democratic results from within.


As you agreed the long line of failed interventions, only furthers Maduro's hand to retain power. Guido, likewise has no interest in reaching any sort of agreement. Rather a case of stale mate, with as usual l the people bearing the brunt.
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Old 02-28-2019, 05:32 AM
 
Location: London, UK
2,876 posts, read 1,549,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
No the cuteness lays in attempts to destabilise the elected Venezuelan government, for ideological reasons from the very beginning.
When a country is destabilised through outside interference, only stands to reason its allows les than democratic results from within.
Venezuela was already on a downward trend since 2014 before any sanctions. It also shut down a lot of its independent media critical of the government since Chaves was in power and aligned itself to the likes of Gaddafi in Libya and authoritarian-type governments of China and Russia. Depending on your ideology the expropriation and demonisation of enterprise of Venezuela was a good or bad thing but it still meant that hundreds of thousands of the brightest minds immigrated from Venezuela well before 2014 after their businesses and in some cases lands were taken from them or placed with heavy restrictions and red tape.

What Venezuela in resources hasn't handed over to the Yanks its handed over to the former. Again, double standards. At least in our societies there are loud voices critical of highly questionable policies. Not in China or Russia.

This is not to say Venezuela was a successful country pre-Chaves (the 90's saw its own disasters created by the greedy right) BUT at least freedoms were more guaranteed. Maduro is authoritarian and will do anything and everything to keep power despite the deep suffering of "his" people and the clear failure of his mandate.
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,832 posts, read 9,482,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
Maduro is authoritarian and will do anything and everything to keep power despite the deep suffering of "his" people
Just another typical dictator, nothing special about him.
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Old 02-28-2019, 06:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Just another typical dictator, nothing special about him.
Besides selling out to business interests, getting the nod from Washington, and surrounding himself, with 'yes' men , in top range suits and well coiffured hair cuts.


Nothing for the people, which takes us back to earlier times.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
975 posts, read 1,966,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Besides selling out to business interests, getting the nod from Washington, and surrounding himself, with 'yes' men , in top range suits and well coiffured hair cuts.


Nothing for the people, which takes us back to earlier times.
I invite you to come down to Cúcuta and talk with some Venezuelan refugees to see what they´ve been through. Many were hardcore chavistas and could care less about who Guiadó rubs elbows with now, so long as it possibly alleviates the nightmare from which they escaped. I know you´re bent on painting Guiadó as this opportunist and the US as this bully (and there is some truth to that), but there´s also far more at play.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:09 PM
 
2,781 posts, read 1,016,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Besides selling out to business interests, getting the nod from Washington, and surrounding himself, with 'yes' men , in top range suits and well coiffured hair cuts.


Nothing for the people, which takes us back to earlier times.
The Venezuelan economy was heavily dependant on the US to begin with, since that is where most of the sales went to.
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:38 AM
 
3,136 posts, read 3,349,191 times
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Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
I invite you to come down to Cúcuta and talk with some Venezuelan refugees to see what they´ve been through. Many were hardcore chavistas and could care less about who Guiadó rubs elbows with now, so long as it possibly alleviates the nightmare from which they escaped. I know you´re bent on painting Guiadó as this opportunist and the US as this bully (and there is some truth to that), but there´s also far more at play.
I do hope that the US aid reaches these people on the ground? Not just attempts to truck it across the border in full gaze of media.Odd thing about the effect of sanctions and a falling economy. It is the poorest, most vulnerable, that too often feel the impact.
Even more so that these folk, were the people that voted for change, and in many cases continue to support back home the existing government, even in the chaos that has broken out. One can only imagine, these people, see no personal benefit in changing sides to Guiado , other than perhaps


I imagine many of the moneyed, left sometime ago. You've got it there. Guiado is an opportunist and little else. More at play? Well yes, I suppose the push from outside for regime change, is quite a play.
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:41 AM
 
3,136 posts, read 3,349,191 times
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Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
The Venezuelan economy was heavily dependant on the US to begin with, since that is where most of the sales went to.
Is there an economy in that part of the world, not over reliant on US trade? Makes for obvious hardship when individual countries of the region play a differing ball game.
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
975 posts, read 1,966,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I do hope that the US aid reaches these people on the ground? Not just attempts to truck it across the border in full gaze of media.Odd thing about the effect of sanctions and a falling economy. It is the poorest, most vulnerable, that too often feel the impact.
Even more so that these folk, were the people that voted for change, and in many cases continue to support back home the existing government, even in the chaos that has broken out. One can only imagine, these people, see no personal benefit in changing sides to Guiado , other than perhaps


I imagine many of the moneyed, left sometime ago. You've got it there. Guiado is an opportunist and little else. More at play? Well yes, I suppose the push from outside for regime change, is quite a play.
I´m trying to hard to respect your way of looking at this, but it´s becoming difficult. Monied people left 10-15-20 years ago in the Chávez era and went to Miami. Then about 10 years ago more monied people settled in Bogotá. Then in about 2012 much of the educated professionals in the oilfield (petroleum engineers and the like) settled in Colombia also and many now work for Ecopetrol and other oil companies. In the last few years, very poor and very desperate people are coming here as well as countries like Perú, Ecuador, Chile, etc. This isn´t normal. Trust me, they support anyone opposed to Maduro and would love to go back if they could. It´s beyond heartbreaking to see them jammed in waiting rooms in public hospitals for neglected health problems that have turned into emergencies. My city Pereira isn´t anywhere near the border nor is it very "immigrant friendly", and guarenteed in a five minute drive on a busy avenue you´ll see entire Venezuelan families with cardboard signs begging for food, job opportunities or donations. Colombia is a great country and all, but with double-digit unemployment and huge informality and underemployment, something is seriously wrong when a million+ Venezuelans here are willing to work super hard at often half the pay given for Colombians...this isn´t normal. The upper class Venezuelan exiles in Miami were easy for Chávez to belitte, but they now represent such a small silver of a percentage of Venezuelans abroad that they´re barely worth even mentioning.

Don´t believe me? None of this looks fun, does it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6sJiKHeKvM

You keep talking about democracy and the people´s will, right? So why has the National Assembly been rendered powerless and a parallel, rubber stamp legislature of Maduro been put in its place? Why do criminal motorcycle gangs known as colectivos have to enforce the will of the government in the face of popular student protests? I admire many, many things that Chávez did, especially in the first years of his presidency. My best friend´s family voted for him twice, and didn´t immigrate here until Maduro came into office and the mess the country is currently in continued to multiply. Do you know who Luisa Ortega is? Look her up. She´s a good example of how wishing for regime change in 2019 has little to do with where one identifies on the political spectrum, and everything to do with the well-being of the people and the country.

Just a hypothetical question here... would lifting the sanctions suddenly cause Maduro to do an about face? We´re talking a long list of issues that he needs to address here. Political prisoners, making illegitimate an entire Legislature, human rights violations, involvement in narcotrafficking...it goes on and on.

Last edited by aab7855; 03-01-2019 at 06:33 AM..
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