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Old 03-01-2019, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,828 posts, read 9,475,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I do hope that the US aid reaches these people on the ground? Not just attempts to truck it across the border in full gaze of media.
It doesn't matter how it reaches them, as long as it reaches them. He's a politician so yeah of course he's going to look for a photo op, but at least he's trying to get aid to the people instead of burning it like Maduro's supporters did.
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Besides selling out to business interests, getting the nod from Washington, and surrounding himself, with 'yes' men , in top range suits and well coiffured hair cuts.


Nothing for the people, which takes us back to earlier times.
One can only hope, Venezuala was once the richest country in South America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
I do hope that the US aid reaches these people on the ground? Not just attempts to truck it across the border in full gaze of media.Odd thing about the effect of sanctions and a falling economy. It is the poorest, most vulnerable, that too often feel the impact.
You can't possibly blame any of Venezuala's troubles on sanctions by US government. This has been decades in the making, originating with Chavez. Besides, while sanctions are against it's state owned oil company monopoly, sanctions are mostly directed at Venezuala's currupt leaders/individuals by name - blocking and seizing personal assets, restricting personal visas, forbidding certain transactions with these people.
Unless the poorest/most vulnerable have millions stashed away in swiss bank accounts, they have nothing to fear.
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Old 03-03-2019, 01:41 AM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,344,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
It doesn't matter how it reaches them, as long as it reaches them. He's a politician so yeah of course he's going to look for a photo op, but at least he's trying to get aid to the people instead of burning it like Maduro's supporters did.
Well it would be far more successful if not used as a political ploy. It could be distrusted through UN or other agencies, to which I believe aid is getting through.
It's not clear who burnt what, from what I have read, but aid should not be political.
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Old 03-03-2019, 01:53 AM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,344,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
One can only hope, Venezuala was once the richest country in South America.



You can't possibly blame any of Venezuala's troubles on sanctions by US government. This has been decades in the making, originating with Chavez. Besides, while sanctions are against it's state owned oil company monopoly, sanctions are mostly directed at Venezuala's currupt leaders/individuals by name - blocking and seizing personal assets, restricting personal visas, forbidding certain transactions with these people.
Unless the poorest/most vulnerable have millions stashed away in swiss bank accounts, they have nothing to fear.
Once the richest for a few. Repression and corruption, combined with a grab what you can policy, by those that felt entitlement, all helped pace the way for the Chavez takeover , in the first place of course.


I can certainly blame US for the worsening situation in that country. Really? mostly directed at corrupt leaders ? How does that work, not to impact the ordinary people? Sanctions have the habit of impacting on the poorest in society. Not the richest.


But I agree, sanctions were not the whole reason. A 70% drop in the price of oil in 2014 , increasingly bad economic policy
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Old 03-03-2019, 08:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Once the richest for a few. Repression and corruption, combined with a grab what you can policy, by those that felt entitlement, all helped pace the way for the Chavez takeover , in the first place of course.


I can certainly blame US for the worsening situation in that country. Really? mostly directed at corrupt leaders ? How does that work, not to impact the ordinary people? Sanctions have the habit of impacting on the poorest in society. Not the richest.


But I agree, sanctions were not the whole reason. A 70% drop in the price of oil in 2014 , increasingly bad economic policy
All Latam countries have a problem with income disparity, the problem and difference is Venezuela used to have a thriving middle class. Now everyone is equal allright - no rich, no middle class, all equally poor. Except that you still have the rich few - party members, military generals, politicians.

Once again, many of the sanctions are against individuals - suspending visas, seizing assets - preventing the monthly shopping junkets these guys have in Hollywood with there wives and mistresses, freezing stolen money they are hiding out in US banks, closing the villas that these guys have in Miami, the businesses these guys have on the side in the US, etc. The poor don't own villas in Miami, the poor don't fly up to Hollywood on a whim to shop for latest fashions.
This explains more:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/01/us-a...al-crisis.html
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Old 03-03-2019, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
preventing the monthly shopping junkets these guys have in Hollywood with there wives and mistresses
The European vacations, the resorts, the fine dining and meals ... No, this is not justifiable, the people shouldn't tolerate that anymore. Tienen que salir como pepa de guama. They've got to get Maduro and his family out of their position of power.
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:16 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,344,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
All Latam countries have a problem with income disparity, the problem and difference is Venezuela used to have a thriving middle class. Now everyone is equal allright - no rich, no middle class, all equally poor. Except that you still have the rich few - party members, military generals, politicians.

Once again, many of the sanctions are against individuals - suspending visas, seizing assets - preventing the monthly shopping junkets these guys have in Hollywood with there wives and mistresses, freezing stolen money they are hiding out in US banks, closing the villas that these guys have in Miami, the businesses these guys have on the side in the US, etc. The poor don't own villas in Miami, the poor don't fly up to Hollywood on a whim to shop for latest fashions.
This explains more:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/01/us-a...al-crisis.html
Well not exactly. Financial and future trade sanctions to limit the capacity of international investors to issue new debt and refinance existing debt, was a big shift away from individual sanctions , aimed at restoring democracy.
The desired result was another internal over throw of regime. No regard for the cost or impact on the people. Nor longer term geo political probabilities. Just ill thought out regime change at any cost.


Afraid the rich have always spent their corrupt money on villas in Miami , off shore bank accounts, as such will not be overly impacted in general. But the failing economy , will decimate the middle class, and hate to think the impact on the bottom twenty or so per cent.
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:19 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,344,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
The European vacations, the resorts, the fine dining and meals ... No, this is not justifiable, the people shouldn't tolerate that anymore. Tienen que salir como pepa de guama. They've got to get Maduro and his family out of their position of power.
Amazingly just how many of the corrupt super rich, manage to continue to live that sort of life, without too many questions.


Get Maduro out by all means. Just be very careful with who he is replaced with.
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:56 PM
 
12,284 posts, read 18,405,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Well not exactly. Financial and future trade sanctions to limit the capacity of international investors to issue new debt and refinance existing debt, was a big shift away from individual sanctions , aimed at restoring democracy.
The desired result was another internal over throw of regime. No regard for the cost or impact on the people. Nor longer term geo political probabilities. Just ill thought out regime change at any cost.


Afraid the rich have always spent their corrupt money on villas in Miami , off shore bank accounts, as such will not be overly impacted in general. But the failing economy , will decimate the middle class, and hate to think the impact on the bottom twenty or so per cent.
Not sure what you mean by "not exactly". You asked me how personal individual sanctions work, I told you, along with support. Yes, it IS - EXACTLY - as stated.

Now the US has other sanctions against the nationalized venezuala oil industry. Basically, they can't sale oil to the US. That's the only other sanction I know about, we aren't talking Iran/N. Korea level here. But this is a big one for sure since Venezuala basically killed all it's other industries. That has effect on the economy for sure, but the only one to blame for that is Venezuala leadership since there oil business was essentially stolen (i.e. nationalized) in the first place, and again they chose not to diversify. So they can't sell oil to the US (that hurts US refineries as well) but they are free to sell to other countries. Guess what, they are selling oil to Russia and China like crazy, but that's to pay debts since they are in debt up to their eye balls to those countries. That's one reason why Russia and China don't want their current government to fail.
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Old 03-03-2019, 09:57 PM
 
3,132 posts, read 3,344,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Not sure what you mean by "not exactly". You asked me how personal individual sanctions work, I told you, along with support. Yes, it IS - EXACTLY - as stated.

Now the US has other sanctions against the nationalized venezuala oil industry. Basically, they can't sale oil to the US. That's the only other sanction I know about, we aren't talking Iran/N. Korea level here. But this is a big one for sure since Venezuala basically killed all it's other industries. That has effect on the economy for sure, but the only one to blame for that is Venezuala leadership since there oil business was essentially stolen (i.e. nationalized) in the first place, and again they chose not to diversify. So they can't sell oil to the US (that hurts US refineries as well) but they are free to sell to other countries. Guess what, they are selling oil to Russia and China like crazy, but that's to pay debts since they are in debt up to their eye balls to those countries. That's one reason why Russia and China don't want their current government to fail.

I do know what individual sanctions are meant to work, perhaps you could give an example where such a 'targeted' policy has worked in the past? As I mentioned, curtailing any financial transactions to Venezuela, will/has resulted in further economic hardship of an already increasingly impoverished population, resulting in ever more leaving in an attempt to survive.


I fully know the reasons why Russia and China don't want the government to fall. Just as I am equally aware of why the Americans want it to fall. Regardless of the chaos and 'style' of next government, as long as it is in any way to the left.


The end result being of course, is that Venezuela, will be 'forced' to become completely compliant to the demands of Russia and China, who I have little doubt, will pay the price it takes, to ensure a permanent, foothold on the South American continent and go on to influence other countries over time, creating a anti American 'wedge' . Potential of shades of Cuban crisis back in 62, just worse.
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