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Old 08-28-2019, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
New Mexico and all of new Spain was was administered from Mexico city.
Right at that. When Spain signed the Independency treaty with Mexico, I don't remember the name of the treaty..morelos?...those territories passed to Mexico.

But previously, as the crown did not have people to settle those lands the lets protestant bandits, which was a crass error. Those criminals killed Mexicans, stole their properties using legal artifacts and now call Mexicans illegal aliens, lo que son cojones.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:52 PM
 
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It reminds me of this Mexican scholar.

She says that she lived in Southern California and for over 10 years couldn't believe how the history is distorted to suit the tastes of the Americans. She mentions that there is a mission in San Diego, California that has a plaque that says it was the first European settlement on the Pacific coast, completely ignoring so many places that were founded before San Diego such as Panama, Lima, etc. The founders of all those places were Spaniards. She mentions that in the US its widespread the belief that Spain had actual colonies (Spanish territories in America had representation in the Spanish congress of the time, she even mentions the Real Audiencia de Santo Domingo which was the first of such body created by Spain in the Western Hemisphere and the third created in all of Spain; contrast that with England, which had 13 colonies along the eastern seaboard that revolted due to taxation without representation). She claims that the Congress Library in Washington DC claims to be the best library in the world, yet it created so many basic problems for the Spanish version of books that it isn't funny. She even mentions the loss of land to Mexico and now they refer to the rightful owners of those lands as illegal immigrants.

Unfortunately the video is in Spanish, but let just say that she is very disappointed with how the Spanish legacy is distorted and treated in the USA, most likely an effect from its British origins.

In the video she explains how she discovered the first historical writings of an American born in Bridgeport, CT (back then the place to be, not the rundown place it's now) that went through Latin American encouraging for the leaders to revolt against Spain. It caught her eyes how he discussed several places in California and how it would be easy for Americans to take over that place. According to her, he didn't care at all of the people he found there.



Hopefully she doesn't take a closer look on the Spanish Royal Palace in Madrid, where the is a statue of a major Native American Cacique or King from Peru, made at the time the palace was constructed. I think she will die in the process of finding a non-white statue on Bukingham Palace in London built at the time the palace was built. Lol

If we look at Florida, the Seminole and other tribes lived in peace with the Spanish for some 300 years. Then came the Americans and suddenly there was a problem with the Florida's indians. Remember the Trail of Tears. Does native Florida indian DNA forms part of most modern Floridians? What about DNA of indians from elsewhere in the USA, most people have there blood mixed in the veins?

Last edited by AntonioR; 08-28-2019 at 03:04 PM..
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Old 08-28-2019, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,162 posts, read 9,624,269 times
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The reason the U.S. wanted the land from Texas through California was to construct a railroad to the west coast. So they went to war with Mexico, they won the war, they took the land. The people occupying those lands became second-class citizens and the U.S. version of the history is at odds with the spanish-language version. It's amusing to read historical books from the period written by the U.S. side versus books from the period written in Spanish. A fair number of books on both sides exist.
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:54 PM
 
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Not only that, but most of the indians that are still alive live in Spanish America, then there are the millions of people that have indian blood mixed in their veins which are also mostly in Spanish America. This shouldn't be the case if the Spanish acted like the English.

This is also evident in the Caribbean, generally most of the people that have indian blood mixed in their veins are in the Spanish Caribbean. When you take the English Caribbean, to give one example, there is simply not enough indian blood to show up even as 1% of the DNA of the people. In places like Guyana or in Dominica there might be more indian blood, but those places are exceptions to the rule in the English Caribbean. This becomes evident in lands where the Spanish side still retains more than usual indian blood mixed in its population, but a simple border is enough to basically wipeout the indian contribution, as is evident in many DNA studies.

In the US most of the indians live in former Spanish lands in the western part of the country. I don't think that is a coincidence.

Most of the people in every Spanish American countries are also heavily mixed with Spaniards, while the European ancestry is something that appears less mixed and more 'pure' in the English parts of the Americas. People in the US in general are oblivious to this until someone points it out. People that talk about this usually mention that the Spanish did the most extermination, when the living evidence shows this is not true by the mere basis of being alive.

The cultural aspect isn't even touched in this discussion, but again the living evidence show that in Spanish America people often share many of the European, indian, and African cultural traits without focusing too much on the ancestry of the person. Its in the English parts of the continent where the culture and the ethnic background (or the identity of the person) play a major role on the cultural aspects they practice. The US is probably where this is most evident, because there is more cultural mixing in the English Caribbean by comparison.

Basically, the living evidence favors the Spanish on this respect over the English or most other European powers in this part of the world. The Portuguese are the only ones that get close to the Spaniards on this respect.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:36 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
6,923 posts, read 3,829,871 times
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Spaniards and Hispano-Indians came north from New Spain and began settlement around 1600 in the upper Rio Grande valley. It was Spanish territory, sparsely occupied, for over 200 years. The Pueblo Revolt of 1680 drove the Spanish out but they returned around 1692 and settlement in the valley resumed. New Mexico is named after the Aztec Empire...not the country. Administration from Mexico City was nearly nonexistent in the New Mexico settlements -- the church maintained more control. It took a year or more for a response to a inquiry to make its way north from Mexico City, if it was answered at all. California was settled later but was not in much better shape. Mexico's independence from Spain was more of a setback than improvement. The new country fought ten years for independence from Spain (beginning in 1810-1821) and then became an Empire briefly and the a republic. It annexed lands to the south (present day Costa Rica, Honduras, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and El Salvador) in 1822-23. It was engaged in civil, religious, and political strife and even attempts by Spain to regain control (invasion of 1829) for a decade after independence. The leadership was a revolving door with frequent changes. Texas declared independence and other parts of Mexico tried to secede (Yucatan, for example). The Comanche Indians were raiding throughout west Texas and into Mexico, effectively cutting off most trade and communication to the north. The Missouri traders began trading down the Santa Fe Trail during this unsettled period and commercial connections with the US began to solidify. There was never much of a Mexican identity among the early New Mexico settlers and the families still self identify with Spanish heritage. The US army occupied New Mexico in 1846. The 1848 gold rush sealed the fate of California and the Mormons arrived in Utah in 1847. The governments in Mexico were in some disarray and barely capable of managing internal turmoil let alone attempt a campaign to retake lost territory. One could speculate that the loss of the northern lands allowed Mexico to evolve into a consolidated nation and fend off foreign intervention (such as by the French in the 1860s).
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Old Yesterday, 05:52 AM
 
12,513 posts, read 18,609,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Not only that, but most of the indians that are still alive live in Spanish America, then there are the millions of people that have indian blood mixed in their veins which are also mostly in Spanish America. This shouldn't be the case if the Spanish acted like the English.

This is also evident in the Caribbean, generally most of the people that have indian blood mixed in their veins are in the Spanish Caribbean. When you take the English Caribbean, to give one example, there is simply not enough indian blood to show up even as 1% of the DNA of the people. In places like Guyana or in Dominica there might be more indian blood, but those places are exceptions to the rule in the English Caribbean. This becomes evident in lands where the Spanish side still retains more than usual indian blood mixed in its population, but a simple border is enough to basically wipeout the indian contribution, as is evident in many DNA studies.

In the US most of the indians live in former Spanish lands in the western part of the country. I don't think that is a coincidence.

Most of the people in every Spanish American countries are also heavily mixed with Spaniards, while the European ancestry is something that appears less mixed and more 'pure' in the English parts of the Americas. People in the US in general are oblivious to this until someone points it out. People that talk about this usually mention that the Spanish did the most extermination, when the living evidence shows this is not true by the mere basis of being alive.

The cultural aspect isn't even touched in this discussion, but again the living evidence show that in Spanish America people often share many of the European, indian, and African cultural traits without focusing too much on the ancestry of the person. Its in the English parts of the continent where the culture and the ethnic background (or the identity of the person) play a major role on the cultural aspects they practice. The US is probably where this is most evident, because there is more cultural mixing in the English Caribbean by comparison.

Basically, the living evidence favors the Spanish on this respect over the English or most other European powers in this part of the world. The Portuguese are the only ones that get close to the Spaniards on this respect.

Hate to take your rose colored glasses off but Spain was particularly brutal to native americans, using them as slaves in the 15th and 16th century where they died in droves (then they replaced them with Africans basically because the native americans died too easy). They conquered them via military might, they enslaved them and worked them to death, they massacred them, they exposed them to western diseases.
The reason there is such a mix of Indian blood in central and south america is the method that Spain used of colonizing these provinces. In North America colonization was done by families, in Spain and Portugal it was done by soldiers - men only. No females. Of course they started to mix. And then you had a strict classification of humans by blood mix - mestizos, etc. Those that had mixed blood were not equal to those that had pure Spanish blood and then had to deal with that role that was assigned to them. It was a complex social structure and your hierarchy was determined by your racial mix, that further determined your social status, wealth, ability to educate and move up in the world. Obviously the more indian blood one had, the less you would be considered a human.
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Old Yesterday, 07:34 AM
 
5,508 posts, read 8,168,897 times
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I found the only non-white statue built at the time a palace to a king of Europe was built. It’s to Momctezuma of Mexico, for some reason previously I said a Cacique of Peru. I probably got it confused with several indians, many from Peru, that studied in Spanish universities as far back as the 1500s (the only Europeans to do this to my knowledge).


https://www.scoopnest.com/es/user/Cu...pana-en-mexico

The palace is in Madrid and was built (along with the statues on its facade) between 1735 and 1764.

Anyone found another non-white statue built in colonial times at any European palace, plaza, park, etc?

What were the Spanish thinking putting a non-white in stone at their capital when its still a colonial period. They even made him wearing his traditional Native American uniform.

Does anyone knows why King Charles I of Spain (also known as Charles V) promulgated the “New Laws” as early as 1542 with the aim of protecting the indians of the Americas? Very humanitarian laws from a European power towards natives people of the Americas and they were promulgated so early too.

Last edited by AntonioR; Yesterday at 07:57 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,162 posts, read 9,624,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
In the US most of the indians live in former Spanish lands in the western part of the country. I don't think that is a coincidence.
I can tell you the reason. The U.S. Government deliberately pushed as many natives as they could out of as many states as possible, into what they considered the "less desirable" areas - Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona.
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Old Yesterday, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,162 posts, read 9,624,269 times
Reputation: 3201
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Does anyone knows why King Charles I of Spain (also known as Charles V) promulgated the “New Laws” as early as 1542 with the aim of protecting the indians of the Americas? Very humanitarian laws from a European power towards natives people of the Americas and they were promulgated so early too.
I can add a little to this conversation. If you read the story of Nunez Cabeza de Vaca - the two books he wrote as well as the history of his life - you'll see a couple interesting things:

Due to wandering lost for 9 years in the American southwest and northern Mexico in the early 1500s, he came across a lot of native tribes. He spent a lot of time with them and as a result, he grew to appreciate them and respect them and consider them equals.

Fast forward several years, he was sent by the Spanish government to Buenos Aires to lead an expedition across the Andes. On this expedition, his men started pillaging the Indian communities they encountered. When Nunez became aware of it, he stopped them. He forbade them from any further maltreatment of the natives - no more pillaging or stealing or raping. Since he was the man in charge, they had to obey him.

But they didn't like it. So when they returned to Buenos Aires two years later, his men reported him to the officials there and they threw him in jail. He was sent to Spain to be put on trial for treason. He waited several years in Spanish prison for his trial. At the trial he was pardoned and let free.

I don't know if there's any connection between him and the decree by King Charles, but both occurred at the same time, so it would be interesting to research it and see if they were related.
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Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
3,940 posts, read 1,702,377 times
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Default Walking a mile in those moccasins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Hate to take your rose colored glasses off but Spain was particularly brutal to native americans, using them as slaves in the 15th and 16th century where they died in droves (then they replaced them with Africans basically because the native americans died too easy). They conquered them via military might, they enslaved them and worked them to death, they massacred them, they exposed them to western diseases.

The population density of Native Peoples in Aztec lands - especially Tenochtitlan (now Mexico City) was much higher than in comparable native lands that became part of the US. So the Spanish had to deal with the Native Peoples - because they were the source of labor, & knew the local languages, religion, cultures, agriculture, & so on.

& yes, the Spanish incursion was essentially military, with the spiritual wellbeing of the natives an afterthought. In the case of Mexico, all that still doesn't explain how Benito Juárez became president of the Republic of Mexico (his life makes for very interesting reading). If the cases - Mexico & the US - are similar in this regard; the political condition of the Native Peoples - or Mexico even worse - then Where is the Native People president of the US?
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