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Old 08-29-2019, 02:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Definitely. I will look into this during the next few months.

Even places like Paraguay retain a much more expansive aspect of the Guaraní tribes considering than in North America where the English forced so many Natives off their land and to some other area or killed them. Isn't Guaraní an official language in Paraguay and most people have much Guaraní blood mixed in? Guaraní cultural practices are still widespread with the ones from Spain, no?
Paraguay is an interesting case where the Jesuit order kept them protected from Spanish slave traders by the use of Spanish Missions and the practice of "Jesuit Reductions", somewhat autonomous and isolated from the brutality of Spanish and Portuguese rule and flying under the radar because they straddled colonial borders.

They were succesful but not perfect as the indegenous population then were subject to the strict rule of Jesuits and they lost there culture and were forced to adapt to Christianity and western societal rules. The Jesuits were no friends of the Spanish and later were expelled from the empire. The Guarani in some areas, not protected by the Jesuits, revolted against Spanish rule and were massacred by Spanish troops in turn.

I think it was somewhat represented in the excellent 1980s film "The Mission"
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
Nahuatl & Maya & many other language groups are still spoken in Mexico, & those cultures are still in existence. In the US, only the Navajo seem to be thriving (language & culture), as well as in numbers. Many other Native cultures & languages within what are now US boundaries have been lost.
I can correct you on this. In New Mexico, Navajo language is actually the least thriving and the most in danger of extinction compared to the various Pueblo languages and cultures that are found throughout the state, some of which are very alive and well.

Regarding whether the native populations suffered more at the hands of the Spaniards or the Anglo-Caucasian, history provides the obvious answer: the Anglo-Caucasians committed what was basically genocide. Although the Spaniards had their share of treating the indigenous poorly (see the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 for example), they in general were more capable of living side-by-side with them and didn't come anywhere close to the campaign of extermination that the U.S. government imposed. Likely a big part of this is due to the Catholic Church's desire to increase membership through a policy of conversion. There may be other reasons as well. The Spanish were greedy in terms of gold, but didn't seem to have the type of long-range strategic planning that the Anglo-Caucasian has.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Paraguay is an interesting case where the Jesuit order kept them protected from Spanish slave traders by the use of Spanish Missions and the practice of "Jesuit Reductions", somewhat autonomous and isolated from the brutality of Spanish and Portuguese rule and flying under the radar because they straddled colonial borders.

They were succesful but not perfect as the indegenous population then were subject to the strict rule of Jesuits and they lost there culture and were forced to adapt to Christianity and western societal rules. The Jesuits were no friends of the Spanish and later were expelled from the empire. The Guarani in some areas, not protected by the Jesuits, revolted against Spanish rule and were massacred by Spanish troops in turn.
You mean Spaniards of the Jesuit segment of the Catholic Church? The same religion that was official and the only one by the Spanish crown? Interesting...

I understand this is an English language forum with an audience and participation mostly from the USA. It goes without saying that the usage of the Spanish Black Legend is more likely in this place, even by people that don't know what it is. In fact, that was one of the main points by the Mexican scholar that I quoted a few posts ago, according to her in the USA they are experts in using the Spanish Black Legend. It makes sense considering the origins of the USA is England.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
The earliest UK colonizers in what became the US were also desperate to wrest a living from the land - they weren't farmers nor woodsmen @ all, as I recall. & they nearly failed - some of the colonies did fail - they couldn't raise crops, the weather was against them, & so on. Without help from Native Peoples, they likely would have died of exposure, disease, hunger.

It was the hunger of colonizers for land to cultivate - population pressure, lack of arable land in Europe, political & religious pressures, politics (in the case of the Irish forced off the land) - & so on, that made a new start preferable to some families.

Spain didn't allow that kind of dissent, or simply expelled any non-conformists. It was also a political blessing for Spain, to allow all the recently armed heroes (from the Reconquest of Spain) an out, & a new place to do or die, very far from the established political order.

Were the various conquests of the Americas a natural progression? Perhaps, but the butcher's bill was very high - & marvelous artifacts & cultures were put to the torch, or died from lack of cadre (mostly in the case of English colonies - due mostly to disease there). Was there any goodness in the soul of the conquistador? Unlikely, & that wasn't his role in Spanish history anyway. He was to fight & conquer, & he had a lot of practice, a good 800 years in the case of Spain.
No real argument except that when I referred to "natural progression" I was specifically regarding the current racial makeup of Central and South America rather than the ideals and morality of conquest and subjugation. My only conclusion is that this occurred both in North and South America by all the European powers, with equal (although different) levels of brutality to the native americans.
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Old 08-29-2019, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
You mean Spaniards of the Jesuit segment of the Catholic Church? The same religion that was official and the only one by the Spanish crown? Interesting...

I understand this is an English language forum with an audience and participation mostly from the USA. It goes without saying that the usage of the Spanish Black Legend is more likely in this place, even by people that don't know what it is. In fact, that was one of the main points by the Mexican scholar that I quoted a few posts ago, according to her in the USA they are experts in using the Spanish Black Legend. It makes sense considering the origins of the USA is England.
This has nothing to do with "Spanish Black" legend or any Europe vs. Spain rivalry. I don't care about that. That's old world thinking and if it preoccupies your thoughts, start another thread. Might be interesting.

Jesuits were expelled from the Spanish Empire in 1767 for reasons that are also beyond the scope of this discussion. That it occured is a matter of historical fact and is beyond dispute.
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Old 08-29-2019, 03:27 PM
 
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Why didn't Mexico try to take back the lands that the Americans stole from them?

From my research, the de facto power was in the Apache, Navajo & similar nomadic tribes.

It was the coastal Gulf that was contested between the settlers.
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Old 08-29-2019, 03:45 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
This has nothing to do with "Spanish Black" legend or any Europe vs. Spain rivalry. I don't care about that. That's old world thinking and if it preoccupies your thoughts, start another thread. Might be interesting.

Jesuits were expelled from the Spanish Empire in 1767 for reasons that are also beyond the scope of this discussion. That it occured is a matter of historical fact and is beyond dispute.
The entire order was suppressed (except in Russia & Prussia) until 1814, when the pope reversed the suppression, & the order was reinstated.
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Old 08-29-2019, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
The entire order was suppressed (except in Russia & Prussia) until 1814, when the pope reversed the suppression, & the order was reinstated.
It deserves a topic of it's own, along with the aforementioned Spanish Black, the "Treaty of Madrid", etc....maybe in the History forum.

Anyways I recommend that move "The Mission"
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:45 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
It deserves a topic of it's own, along with the aforementioned Spanish Black, the "Treaty of Madrid", etc....maybe in the History forum.

Anyways I recommend that move "The Mission"
Yep, interesting movie. Lots of history there, which isn't usually covered in US history classes - certainly not @ the high school level.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Every society, every culture has people in power who want more, and who commit atrocities to get it. The only difference is how greedy and how far people go with it. Before Europeans came to the Americas, aggressive tribes subjugated less aggressive ones. Europeans arrived with larger aspirations and more firepower and subjugated what they found. The Spaniards did it. The Anglo-Caucasians did it simply to a more extensive and calculated extent. That's all there is to it. There's no morality behind it. Morality is a layer put on top to justify and explain it, or to condemn it.
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