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Old 09-07-2019, 06:29 AM
Status: "Life goes on..." (set 9 days ago)
 
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I remember a history professor at college tell me that the Spanish didn’t migrate in large numbers to Latin America. According to him, the evidence was in most of the people who are told they are mestizo (mixed, usually Spanish and Native American) when in reality they are basically indians and the few with Spanish blood tend to have very little. This was before DNA studies were done using SNPs.

I accepted that explanation which seem to be widespread in the USA. Then a few years later DNA studies published in scientific annals were done up and down Spanish America. DNA study after DNA study would prove that not only were most mestizos actual mestizos, but the Spanish ancestry was actually significantly. It completely destroyed what I had been told regarding this in the USA. It made me realize how lies become widespread to justify American views on certain things.

This is only one aspect of several deceptions that through the years I have had with what is taught in the USA and what is reality. It turns out on many things it’s two completely different things on the same topic. With the topic at hand the professor was a liberal, so conservatives probably agreed with him that the Spanish lied by telling indians that they were mestizo, only to have reality prove them wrong.

I also had the same professor attempt to say that Sir Francis Drake was a good guy. Another topic that I couldn’t let go without a debate. If he was a good man, then there are no evil people in this world. lol

Last edited by AntonioR; 09-07-2019 at 06:38 AM..
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Old 09-07-2019, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,215 posts, read 9,663,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
There was no colonization really, there were soldiers and governors and the church.
And the settlers. The families who settled and started farming, sheepherding. There were more of them than there were the other groups.
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Old 09-08-2019, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Outside US
1,422 posts, read 570,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takezoe View Post
The Aztecs (Mexica tribe) found an island in the middle of a lake and called it Mexico.

the Aztecs then "Stole" the land from the surrounding tribes.

Then Spain "stole" the land from the Aztecs.

Then New Spain "stole" land and called themselves the country of Mexico.

then the United states Stole the land from Mexico that was vastly underpopulated and underdeveloped.
Indeed.

And the Mexicans stole their land.

That part the US stole from them, Mexico only held for 26 years. They could not do basic administration of it.
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,215 posts, read 9,663,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
No one wanted to go live in the borderlands, nor try to wrest a living from agriculture
Maybe this was true in larger populated centers, but it wasn't true in the farther outreaches. The Spaniards who settled New Mexico were all farmers right from the beginning.
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:34 AM
 
Location: southern california
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If you fight a war with a country and lose and part of the peace is giving up land itís not a theft it is a very angry resentful loser name calling
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:49 AM
 
2,395 posts, read 989,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHESTER MANIFOLD View Post
The French occupation of Texas during a few years is anecdotical. Mexico inherited the legacy of the Spanish crown that was there 200 years. Just as the emerging 13 colonies inherited the legacy of those British companies.
It doesn't belong to Spain either.

The acquisition of the South West was a conflict between two European powers over some land that belong to neither of them. It was similar to the Louisiana purchase. The Spanish lost. They weren't the victims of anything. They were the losers.

Nobody owes them ****. If they seriously want the American south west back, they need to think about giving the money back first.

Why do Spanish people think that all of North and South America belongs to them anyway? They had most of the continent at one point. Is the rest of Latin America not enough? Is Mexico not big enough as it is?
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Old 09-08-2019, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Lakeside, CA
284 posts, read 32,069 times
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Mexico does such a great job of running the territory it does have.......all it needs are some more states to F up....
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Old 09-08-2019, 03:45 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
3,949 posts, read 1,715,038 times
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Default Spanish colonial farmers were hardly Jeffersonian yeomen

Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Maybe this was true in larger populated centers, but it wasn't true in the farther outreaches. The Spaniards who settled New Mexico were all farmers right from the beginning.
It's not a tidy situation, not even in retrospect after all these years. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...d_colonization

"Contemporary scholars believe that the objective of Spanish rule of New Mexico (and all other northern lands) was the full exploitation of the native population and resources. As Frank McNitt writes,

"Governors were a greedy and rapacious lot whose single-minded interest was to wring as much personal wealth from the province as their terms allowed. They exploited Indian labor for transport, sold Indian slaves in New Spain, and sold Indian products ... and other goods manufactured by Indian slave labor.[15]

"The exploitative nature of Spanish rule resulted in their conducting nearly continuous raids and reprisals against the nomadic Indian tribes on the borders, especially the Apache, Navajo, and Comanche.

"Franciscan missionaries accompanied OŮate to New Mexico; afterward there was a continuing struggle between secular and religious authorities. Both colonists and the Franciscans depended upon Indian labor, mostly the Pueblo, and competed with each other to control a decreasing Indian population. They suffered high mortality because of infectious European diseases, to which they had no acquired immunity, and exploitation that disrupted their societies. The struggle between the Franciscans and the civil government came to a head in the late 1650s. Governor Bernardo Lopez de Mendizabal and his subordinate Nicolas de Aguilar forbade the Franciscans to punish Indians or employ them without pay. They granted the Pueblo permission to practice their traditional dances and religious ceremonies. After the Franciscans protested, Lopez and Aguilar were arrested, turned over to the Inquisition, and tried in Mexico City. Thereafter, the Franciscans reigned supreme in the province. Pueblo dissatisfaction with the rule of the clerics was the main cause of the Pueblo revolt.[16]

"The Spanish in New Mexico were never able to gain dominance over the Indian peoples, who lived among and surrounded them. The isolated colony of New Mexico was characterized by "elaborate webs of ethnic tension, friendship, conflict, and kinship" among Indian groups and Spanish colonists. Because of the weakness of New Mexico, "rank-and-file settlers in outlying areas had to learn to coexist with Indian neighbors without being able to keep them subordinate."[17] The Pueblo Indians were the first group to challenge Spanish rule significantly. Later the nomadic Indians, especially the Comanche, mounted attacks that weakened the Spanish."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

Spanish imperial policy & administration were a tangled mess. Plus the church had a different mission from that of the appointed administrators of the imperial boonies. The factionalism within the Spanish administrators encouraged plotting by outsiders - like US citizens taking up imperial land in Texas - to detach Texas from Mexico & attach it to the US.
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Old 09-09-2019, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,215 posts, read 9,663,979 times
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UrbanLuis:


You remember last week I showed you photos of the south Valley. Alfalfa fields. Trees. Well, that's in the Rio Grande valley. Once you get outside the river valley, it looks like this:






And if you go to the mountains, it looks like this:






And if you go to Santa Fe just after sunset, from the balcony of a building on the Plaza it looks like this:








And if you go back to the desert, you can eat these, just be sure to peel them carefully as it has lots of needles:






And if you go to the Jemez pueblo you can buy Jemez enchiladas with red chile, cooked on a cedar firepit, and you can hear the vendors talking to eachother in Towa (one of the Indian languages):




I didn't go to the Navajo reservation this time, but if you go driving around there you'll see about half the residences are just shacks that don't have electricity.
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Old 09-09-2019, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,215 posts, read 9,663,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
Governors were a greedy and rapacious lot
Well, the politicians had whatever goals they had, but as I said most of the people who settled in New Mexico were just farmers and most of them ended up marrying Indians and raising kids.

Quote:
rnor Bernardo Lopez de Mendizabal and his subordinate Nicolas de Aguilar forbade the Franciscans to punish Indians or employ them without pay. They granted the Pueblo permission to practice their traditional dances and religious ceremonies. After the Franciscans protested, Lopez and Aguilar were arrested, turned over to the Inquisition, and tried in Mexico City.
Similar to what happened to Cabeza de Vaca.
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