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Old 05-05-2019, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
The street gangs don't control Honduras. The cartels along with the right wing polticians and the army. Pretty much the mafia. People look the other way becuase it is a "democracy".

Is there hope for the Northern triangle? I really don't see any. Maybe in El savlador, but Honduras and Guatemala are a lost cause. Hurts me to say it but it's true. The countries are too far to the right. If Venezuela is ****ed becuase of its socialist government, Guatemala and Honduras are the other extreme of the spectrum.
The violence has been aimed at clearing out substitutence farms for the big foreign agricultural firms who have been implicated in the death squads.

link

NAFTA did a good job of that with Southern Mexico about 25 years ago. And the EU agricultural trade subsidies did the same in Africa in the eighties.

There has been similar economic warfare targeted against oil-producing countries in Africa to shut down production through terror.
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:24 PM
 
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The fact is this- gangs are never going away. Just look at Los Angeles and Chicago. Unlike the mob or drug cartels, there are no centralized points of authority within those organizations, and law enforcement can topple them down.

What makes the situation so much worse in Honduras, is that these gangs are L.A. based, which has a distinct gang culture. They do more than just gang bang, they indoctrinate their members. There are generations of gang members and families in L.A. Its like a social cancer, and now that its infected these countries, I don't think they will ever be eliminated.

Its hard to say this, but these idiots could have controlled the Central American route, and possibly formed a cartel of their own, and rival their neighbors to the north and south. I think the lesser of two evils is having some cartel capo calling shots and at least having an idea of who law enforcement can go after. Instead theres this huge swath of area, that is checkered by these gangs, each in its own silo, terrorizing their streets.

There needs to be a MASSIVE shift in these countries cultures to even know how to tackle the problem.

Last edited by Scientific; 05-07-2019 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,832 posts, read 9,480,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmlandis View Post
Thoughts? I know Colombia managed to turn things around from 20 years back.
"Turn things around" is too strong of a phrase. Things have managed to be improved in Colombia - the dissolution of FARC is the primary thing - but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's a peaceful country. There is still a substantial amount of violence there and a substantial amount of corruption, crime, and other paramilitary groups operating outside the law.

My thoughts on Central America: if someone figures out how to, as you said, improve the economy with legal jobs, then this will have a beneficial effect across the board. Those countries have a lot of natural resources but are lacking in infrastucture and organizational skills - hampered by reticence and corruption. The people at the top grab everything they can and never let the general population reap the benefits.

A previous poster who said gangs will never go away is wrong. Street gangs are vulnerable to two things: economics and public safety measures. The problem south of the border is the government - due to corruption and lack of resources - does not have the type of controls for public safety that those of us in Europe and the U.S. enjoy. Address both those issues and gangs are able to be minimized and controlled.

Central America has been used for cocaine trafficking since the 1980s. This has been going on for a long time. Venezuela has been involved along with the FARC in cocaine trafficking for decades also. Sure, when certain routes get hot, the routes are changed, might go through a different country. This year might be Venezuela, next year might be Costa Rica, or whatever. But the point is: things may appear to suddenly be "worse off" than they were before, but that's an illusion if you look at Central and South America and Mexico as a whole. Central America was heavily involved back then as well. Even Jamaica. Remember Noriega.

The neighborhood I grew up in Albuquerque, in the 1980s the leaders of the street gang in this neighborhood (a Chicano gang that goes back to the 1940s) had contacts directly in Colombia for importing cocaine. In the early 1990s when Mexican cartels got more heavily involved their contacts switched to Mexicans and members of the Mexican mafia have been living in that neighborhood since that time. In fact since way back then the Mexican mafia has had people in every city in the United States. You'll find them in big cities and in small towns. Nothing new, it's been going on for a long time, and was every bit as violent back then as it is now.

What to do about drug violence? Nothing can be done as long as it's illegal and as long as there's a huge appetite for it.

Last edited by 80skeys; 05-12-2019 at 04:54 PM..
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Old 05-12-2019, 06:44 PM
 
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But why didn't you link to the article? I think this is it, if anyone is interested:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-violence.html
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:29 PM
 
204 posts, read 297,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
"Turn things around" is too strong of a phrase. Things have managed to be improved in Colombia - the dissolution of FARC is the primary thing - but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's a peaceful country. There is still a substantial amount of violence there and a substantial amount of corruption, crime, and other paramilitary groups operating outside the law.

My thoughts on Central America: if someone figures out how to, as you said, improve the economy with legal jobs, then this will have a beneficial effect across the board. Those countries have a lot of natural resources but are lacking in infrastucture and organizational skills - hampered by reticence and corruption. The people at the top grab everything they can and never let the general population reap the benefits.

A previous poster who said gangs will never go away is wrong. Street gangs are vulnerable to two things: economics and public safety measures. The problem south of the border is the government - due to corruption and lack of resources - does not have the type of controls for public safety that those of us in Europe and the U.S. enjoy. Address both those issues and gangs are able to be minimized and controlled.

Central America has been used for cocaine trafficking since the 1980s. This has been going on for a long time. Venezuela has been involved along with the FARC in cocaine trafficking for decades also. Sure, when certain routes get hot, the routes are changed, might go through a different country. This year might be Venezuela, next year might be Costa Rica, or whatever. But the point is: things may appear to suddenly be "worse off" than they were before, but that's an illusion if you look at Central and South America and Mexico as a whole. Central America was heavily involved back then as well. Even Jamaica. Remember Noriega.

The neighborhood I grew up in Albuquerque, in the 1980s the leaders of the street gang in this neighborhood (a Chicano gang that goes back to the 1940s) had contacts directly in Colombia for importing cocaine. In the early 1990s when Mexican cartels got more heavily involved their contacts switched to Mexicans and members of the Mexican mafia have been living in that neighborhood since that time. In fact since way back then the Mexican mafia has had people in every city in the United States. You'll find them in big cities and in small towns. Nothing new, it's been going on for a long time, and was every bit as violent back then as it is now.

What to do about drug violence? Nothing can be done as long as it's illegal and as long as there's a huge appetite for it.
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying street gangs can be eliminated, but then touch on a gang like Mexican Mafia that has been around forever. Name one major American street gang, with the amount of members these have, that have been successfully eliminated? Name one gang of yester year that is no more? Crips. Bloods. Vice Lords. Latin Kings. etc. They've been around forever now, and will never just disappear.... You're downplaying how entrenched they are culturally. Major street gangs are not going anywhere- these aren't some small cliques of kids in some random city. I pointed to L.A. and Chicago, and they're still facing the same problems they did 40 years ago. Has the violence come down in these cities? Yes it has, and for so many reasons to list. Education and opportunity played a part, but there have been other changes that contributed to the decline in violence. But these gangs are still very much there.

As far as the opportunities in Central America? What natural resources do these countries have outside of agriculture? El Salvador has been the most densely populated country in the Western hemisphere for a very long time. During this decade, Honduras's population has surged and so has Guatemala. Overpopulation, and few resources is a major issue in my opinion. The maras have taken a life of their own, and it's going to take more than locking them up or bringing jobs to improve the situation. The job market now is so globalized, the abundance of cheap labor makes it so that these countries will have a very difficult time to improve their middle class.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:11 PM
Status: "Then everything change forever..." (set 16 days ago)
 
5,196 posts, read 8,029,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying street gangs can be eliminated, but then touch on a gang like Mexican Mafia that has been around forever. Name one major American street gang, with the amount of members these have, that have been successfully eliminated? Name one gang of yester year that is no more? Crips. Bloods. Vice Lords. Latin Kings. etc. They've been around forever now, and will never just disappear.... You're downplaying how entrenched they are culturally. Major street gangs are not going anywhere- these aren't some small cliques of kids in some random city. I pointed to L.A. and Chicago, and they're still facing the same problems they did 40 years ago. Has the violence come down in these cities? Yes it has, and for so many reasons to list. Education and opportunity played a part, but there have been other changes that contributed to the decline in violence. But these gangs are still very much there.

As far as the opportunities in Central America? What natural resources do these countries have outside of agriculture? El Salvador has been the most densely populated country in the Western hemisphere for a very long time. During this decade, Honduras's population has surged and so has Guatemala. Overpopulation, and few resources is a major issue in my opinion. The maras have taken a life of their own, and it's going to take more than locking them up or bringing jobs to improve the situation. The job market now is so globalized, the abundance of cheap labor makes it so that these countries will have a very difficult time to improve their middle class.
What you say in the bold is true, but I must say that most countries that are rich don’t have lots of natural resources, most actually have none except agriculture. Those countries use more their brains to make a lot of cash, to put it bluntly.

I don’t see how those countries are going to get rid of the Maras, perhaps never. What can be done is containment within the countries that are infected and so far Nicaragua and company have done a good job. Mainly not having Salvadorans and Hondurans moving to their countries. I think the economy has something to do with that and the heavy focus on the USA, especially in El Salvador.

Most countries in Central America (minus Costa Rica and Panama) plus the DR have easy moving from one country to another. The DR has an economy that is expanding faster than most countries, but air fares keep the population movements from Central America quite low. As far as I know, the closest flights head for Costa Rica and Panama. On the north side is Mexico City that gets a direct flight from the DR and that’s it for Middle America.

El Salvador hardly is growing economically (and population too) while Honduras has a lackluster growth. Those countries are not really converging with other countries in the region.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
975 posts, read 1,965,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
What you say in the bold is true, but I must say that most countries that are rich don’t have lots of natural resources, most actually have none except agriculture. Those countries use more their brains to make a lot of cash, to put it bluntly.

I don’t see how those countries are going to get rid of the Maras, perhaps never. What can be done is containment within the countries that are infected and so far Nicaragua and company have done a good job. Mainly not having Salvadorans and Hondurans moving to their countries. I think the economy has something to do with that and the heavy focus on the USA, especially in El Salvador.

Most countries in Central America (minus Costa Rica and Panama) plus the DR have easy moving from one country to another. The DR has an economy that is expanding faster than most countries, but air fares keep the population movements from Central America quite low. As far as I know, the closest flights head for Costa Rica and Panama. On the north side is Mexico City that gets a direct flight from the DR and that’s it for Middle America.

El Salvador hardly is growing economically (and population too) while Honduras has a lackluster growth. Those countries are not really converging with other countries in the region.
The Dominican Republic is turning out to be quite the success story, let me tell you. One of my good friends in Puerto Rico is an educational consultant and he travels all through Latin America to give conferences...the progress shows, big time. He says it pains him to see PR contracting and the DR just going up and up. I wasn´t sure about their crime stats, but certainly when I was in the Cibao years ago I didn´t feel like it was very dangerous...it was Santo Domingo and maybe San Francisco that needed to improve (said the locals to me).
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,832 posts, read 9,480,334 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying street gangs can be eliminated, but then touch on a gang like Mexican Mafia that has been around forever.
I distinguish street gangs from organized crime. Street gangs cause the most blatant chaos but they also are the easiest to respond to controlling measures. I also didn't say street gangs can be eliminated, I said they can be controlled, by which I mean they can be controlled to the extent they're not wreaking havoc on entire cities, running amok without any rule of law, which is what is happening in Central America but is NOT happening in the United States.
Quote:
Major street gangs are not going anywhere-
They still exist, but they are nowhere near a public menace as they are in central america. Why are they more controlled in the U.S.? Because we have a better system of public safety and better economics. As I said, these are the two factors that street gangs are vulnerable to.
Quote:
As far as the opportunities in Central America? What natural resources do these countries have outside of agriculture?
Agriculture is a huge one. There's forests and mining, nickel mines in Guatemala, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
The Dominican Republic is turning out to be quite the success story, let me tell you.
We also gotta wait and see how much of it is legitimate rather than people cooking the books. Funnelling narco money into the economy can make it look legit temporarily, but eventually it will come tumbling down.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
975 posts, read 1,965,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post

We also gotta wait and see how much of it is legitimate rather than people cooking the books. Funnelling narco money into the economy can make it look legit temporarily, but eventually it will come tumbling down.
Can I hear it one time for...

♪ Caaali, pachanguero.. ♫

I know the DR got better a few years back off mining and tourism as well...but yeah, you gotta watch the sources of investment and where the money really comes from.
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:05 PM
 
204 posts, read 297,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
I distinguish street gangs from organized crime. Street gangs cause the most blatant chaos but they also are the easiest to respond to controlling measures. I also didn't say street gangs can be eliminated, I said they can be controlled, by which I mean they can be controlled to the extent they're not wreaking havoc on entire cities, running amok without any rule of law, which is what is happening in Central America but is NOT happening in the United States.
"A previous poster who said gangs will never go away is wrong."
I disagree. Again, your underestimating how entrenched these gangs are in these cultures. I wouldnt even call them gangs, more like cults. There is something wrong when 14 year old boys machete other boys just because they dont know who they are. I've been to Lima, Monterrey, Nuevo Laredo, Santo Domingo, Panama City, and the only time I ever felt uneasy was in San Salvador. I've seen how the culture of these gangs have infected these places. L.A. gang culture is something else, and this mindset for these kids is all theyve been taught. In my opinion? The gangs are worst than any cartel, because at least you can sitdown with a cartel boss. The maras are the bottom of the gutter.


Quote:
They still exist, but they are nowhere near a public menace as they are in central america. Why are they more controlled in the U.S.? Because we have a better system of public safety and better economics. As I said, these are the two factors that street gangs are vulnerable to.
Its dense on your end to even compare any thrid world country to the US. Im sure based on your username, you know what was happening in the 80s in this country. Cities were reporting homicides in the thousands. This is what was exported to Central America. Its deeper than just saying its a gang problem.

Quote:
Agriculture is a huge one. There's forests and mining, nickel mines in Guatemala, and so on
Agriculture is about the only thing the region has ever had. They were called Banana Republics for a reason. And mining? El Salvador banned it, because of how bad it eroded much of its environment. A couple thousand mining jobs isnt worth raping the land and the hazards that come with it long term. These places have been exploited for a long time, and agriculture and mining isn't something that hasn't been tapped. And forest? they've been reduced by 80% since the 1940s. The jungles are protected, and whats left has been logged down for a while.


For the sake of comparisons. Costa Rica has no military, and while still considered an impoverished nation, the country has a fraction of the population the other three have. Tourism and agricuture is what they're happy with. Panama? They fought hard to get the canal back, and they're reaping the benefits. Why isnt Nicaragua experiencing the same things? They have less than 500k people in the states, and they didnt go to Los Angeles like the other three did in the 80s. Add on to the fact it is the poorest country in Latin America, and there is no incentive for mareros to set up shop there.


I visit the Dominican Republic frequently. I have friends and family there. I see parallels between them and Central America(the immigration of the 80s and even in the numbers they have here in the US). The way I've described it is, the two cities with the most influence have shaped these countries in so many ways, people ignore it. The urban New York mindset is has influenced heavily on the DR, while Central American triangle is Los Angeles. The DR's economy doesnt depend on remittances at the level the other places do. I think the most recent GDP estimates was that El Salvador's is 25% and Honduras is 20%. From an economic stand point, DR has done a great job of focusing on a service economy, along with tourism and manufacturing.

Last edited by Scientific; 05-13-2019 at 07:15 PM..
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