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Old 05-13-2019, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
I distinguish street gangs from organized crime. Street gangs cause the most blatant chaos but they also are the easiest to respond to controlling measures. I also didn't say street gangs can be eliminated, I said they can be controlled, by which I mean they can be controlled to the extent they're not wreaking havoc on entire cities, running amok without any rule of law, which is what is happening in Central America but is NOT happening in the United States.
n.
Well I think LA actually is a pretty good example of what you are saying. Gangs haven't been eliminated but they definitely have been some what controlled. Gentrification, gang injuctions , gang enhancements etc etc have all contributed to gangs and gang violence going way down. Its a different age, I think within a generation or two gangs will probably die out in LA.

You hear a lot about gangs like MS13 but if you go through their neighborhood in LA, they are not visible like they once were in the early 90s. Not even close. They are nothing but a shadow of their former self and this trend will only continue.
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:52 AM
Status: "Hope is last to lose it..." (set 1 day ago)
 
5,214 posts, read 8,037,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
I visit the Dominican Republic frequently. I have friends and family there. I see parallels between them and Central America(the immigration of the 80s and even in the numbers they have here in the US). The way I've described it is, the two cities with the most influence have shaped these countries in so many ways, people ignore it. The urban New York mindset is has influenced heavily on the DR, while Central American triangle is Los Angeles. The DR's economy doesnt depend on remittances at the level the other places do. I think the most recent GDP estimates was that El Salvador's is 25% and Honduras is 20%. From an economic stand point, DR has done a great job of focusing on a service economy, along with tourism and manufacturing.
Yes, the DR has progressed a lot in recent decades. Anyone would had visited the country in the 1990’s and then visited today and its like a different country altogether. The south (they use the Central Mountains as reference) and the rural areas (minus in the central Cibao) is still lagging behind. Where most of the people live it has changed tremendously. Even the forest cover is growing. Its now back to over 40% (in the Trujillo years it was 60 to 70% forest, most of the island still looked the way the Spanish found it in 1492). Only 3 other countries in the Americas had forest cover grow (Cuba among them). Homicides, which for many years was going up, has gone down in the last years. Even inequality has gone down. Half of all the investment that is done in the Caribbean is done in the DR.

Anyone that wants to develop in tourism, manufacturing for export, services for export (such as call centers), and retail featuring the growing middle class in the cities (plus activities that support these) is ripe to have success if they know what they are doing.

Most of the people now moving to the US are family members of people there. It also has one of the lowest rates of professionals leaving in the Caribbean. It also has one of the highest return rates of emigrants.

Last edited by AntonioR; 05-14-2019 at 07:04 AM..
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
"A previous poster who said gangs will never go away is wrong."
I disagree. Again, your underestimating how entrenched these gangs are in these cultures.
I'm not underestimating anything. I know first-hand what gangs are all about. I see where you're coming from and you make some valid points about gang culture being strongly entrenched, but I encourage you to look at places where economics have been infused and the effect this had on dissolving gangs.
Quote:
I've been to Lima, Monterrey, Nuevo Laredo, Santo Domingo, Panama City, and the only time I ever felt uneasy was in San Salvador. I've seen how the culture of these gangs have infected these places. L.A. gang culture is something else,
The Chicano L.A. gang culture is exactly the same as the Chicano gang culture you see throughout the southwest U.S. One of the pivotal gang movies of all time is "Blood in Blood Out" about East L.A. gangs, but do you know who wrote the movie? A guy from my neighborhood in New Mexico. He actually had never been in any California gangs, but he drew on his Albuquerque experiences to paint the picture of how things were with Chicanos in L.A.
L.A. gangs may have developed a somewhat more "intense"/"organized" culture in the 80s, but you can see similar levels of violence and cruelty in Mexican street gangs going back a long ways too.
Quote:
The gangs are worst than any cartel
This I can agree with to an extent. Street gangs are unpredictable, they act on impulse rather than thinking, they don't control themselves, they can be very animalistic, they often get their kicks out of harming people. So when you run into them there's always the potential of it being a dicey situation. On the other hand, mafiosos are in it for the business. They don't have any purpose or motive that's not driven by the business, and generally speaking they are more in control of themselves. But they do demand respect and can get problematic with people who don't give them respect. They also interface with street gangs and in many cases give orders to street gangs, so there's a blurred line there.
Throughout my life I've been around people involved in both these things, and I can tell you a couple things: many of them do *not* get involved because they enjoy hurting people. They get into it for different reasons. Of this group, *some* of them end up getting messed up on drugs so much and inocculated into the culture at the same time so much that they lose the ability to distinguish morality and end up hurting people and and as a result their hatred of their own self increases, so they medicate themselves with more drugs. You see a pattern here: drugs. The drugs exascerbate an already unethnical situation.
But the number of psychopaths who join gangs because they enjoy it is a smaller percentage. So of the total number of people in a street gang, there's a small percentage of psychopaths, there's a larger percentage of people who effectively become psychopaths due to brainwashing and drugs, and then there's the rest who throughout the process are able to retain their humanity for the most part.
Quote:
Its dense on your end to even compare any thrid world country to the US.
Well, to give you some context, I grew up in a barrio in Albuquerque, I've got family in Mexico and Colombia and am quite familiar with all three cultures. If there's anybody here who can talk intelligently on these matters, it's me.

On a different note, my username refers to 80s music (keys = keyboard) because I'm a musician.

Quote:
From an economic stand point, DR has done a great job of focusing on a service economy, along with tourism and manufacturing.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume their recent economic boom is due to legitimate reasons.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Well I think LA actually is a pretty good example of what you are saying. Gangs haven't been eliminated but they definitely have been some what controlled. Gentrification,
Yes, just look at what happened to San Jose street gangs here in Silicon Valley.
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:16 PM
Status: "Hope is last to lose it..." (set 1 day ago)
 
5,214 posts, read 8,037,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to assume their recent economic boom is due to legitimate reasons.
This is based on the belief that drug money actually activates the economy of some countries, but its very easy the discount this belief. For example, there is more money in the Dominican economy alone than is available as drug money in the Caribbean region. Also, Puerto Rico has a lot of drug trafficking and money laundering and it still has an economic crisis. Haiti also has a lot of money laundering and its economy isn’t doing good over the long term. Honduras and El Salvador also has much drug money laundering and flowing mostly back to Colombia, and their economies hardly are shining examples. Most of drug money actually stays in the USA and most of it is a small part of the USA economy. Even in Colombia drug money is a small part of the economy. Examples are everywhere.

With that said, its well known that some towers in Santo Domingo have been built with drug money and some drug traffickers have developed fortunes. The latter one even includes a Puerto Rican that “escaped” from a high level prison in PR and reached the DR with a small boat somewhere along the southeastern coast. Most of those people are followed and taken into custody when the authorities have enough evidences. Thats what happened to the Puerto Rican guy who was running away in SD and then appeared in San Juan living a normal life for a few months. He was quite open of his restaurants and shoppes visits in the Condado area of San Juan. He did that with his Dominican live in girlfriend and didn’t have a visa to be in the USA. That guy was living like a movie. He made the Dominican and Puerto Rican police look quite dumb. He was going from one island to another as if it was nothing. He is now in jail in PR again (his girlfriend was in jail in the DR, but she is out now), but it was quite a circus to get him back in the slammer. Even several private sex tapes done by him with his girlfriend and others done with other men’s wife was on sale in the SD streets. That was crazy whichever way one wants to look at it. lol That happen a few years ago.

Last edited by AntonioR; 05-14-2019 at 07:37 PM..
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Drug money is very visible in Central America. Many those high rise building in Tegucigalpa and Guatemala are from money laundering. Construction is one of the oldest ways for organized crime to wash money. Guatemala is one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere yet I see more BMWS, Ranger Rovers etc in Guatemala city than I do here in Canada.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:33 AM
Status: "Hope is last to lose it..." (set 1 day ago)
 
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Guatemala has a bigger economy than Honduras and El Salvador, but its also way more populated. Its economy is doing OK, but the country isn’t developing beyond population growth. It isn’t converging with other countries either (this means that its growing, but rich countries grow more when crises are taken into account).

Only Panama, Chile, and DR are converging. The rest of the countries in Latin America are either staying the same vis-a-vis rich countries or are growing but falling behind rich countries. Then there is Venezuela which is, to put it bluntly, out of control. Most countries in Latin America are getting poorer compared to rich countries (but richer compared to what they were before).
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
This is based on the belief that drug money actually activates the economy of some countries, but its very easy the discount this belief. For example, there is more money in the Dominican economy alone than is available as drug money in the Caribbean region.
You're wrong on this, dude. The amount of cocaine money in Colombia is enough to drive the economies of most any small country in the world.

Quote:
Most of drug money actually stays in the USA
Wrong. The drugs stay in the U.S., the money makes it way back to Colombia.
Quote:
Even in Colombia drug money is a small part of the economy.
Very naive.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:25 AM
Status: "Hope is last to lose it..." (set 1 day ago)
 
5,214 posts, read 8,037,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
You're wrong on this, dude. The amount of cocaine money in Colombia is enough to drive the economies of most any small country in the world.
Not really. Colombia's economy produces over US$300 billion every year and drug money in that country is estimated at US$10 billion. That's less than 1% of the country's economy.

Drugs hardly affects any country's economy. If it did, most countries in Central America and the Caribbean would be booming right now. The fact that they aren't is a big tale tell sign. They even go through crises that doesn't correspond with drug practices. Lol DR's economy is well over US$100 billion a year. There simply isn't enough drug money in the whole Caribbean to have an impact on the economy of the big islands.

Quote:
Wrong. The drugs stay in the U.S., the money makes it way back to Colombia.
That's not how the drug trade works. Most of the money stays in the US and a small part makes it to Latin America. One example: https://www.businessinsider.com/wher...ey-goes-2016-3
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
5,845 posts, read 9,487,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Drugs hardly affects any country's economy. If it did, most countries in Central America and the Caribbean would be booming right now.
There are places where drug money gets fronted as legitimate business, and there are places where the money just passes through. This depends a lot on the aspirations of the people who own the money. Some of them have political aspirations, or aspirations of combining illicit business with legitimate business, while others don't have these aspirations. It also depends on where drug money is being laundered at this moment in time - this is volatile, it changes from place to place responding to political pressure, pressure from the U.S., etc. That's why I'm saying the jury is out on the Dominican Republic for the time being.

Quote:
That's not how the drug trade works. Most of the money stays in the US and a small part makes it to Latin America. One example: https://www.businessinsider.com/wher...ey-goes-2016-3
Completely wrong. That article is referring to low-level middlemen in the United States. The article itself says "a fair amount makes its way back to Latin America." This is an understatement - the people writing the article are either clueless, or more likely they have a political agenda for phrasing it in that manner. The reality is that the bulk of the profit goes back to Colombia. Whatever money the middle men make is eaten up by two things: overhead, and obligation to the Colombians. Anything left over (profit) for the middle man is small potatoes comparitively speaking.

Recently Mexican cartels have been trying to establish themselves in Colombia because they're not happy with how much of the money the Colombian cartels are keeping.

You think Colombians at the origin are being paid in pesos? They're not, they're paid in dollars. There's a whole network of coordinated money laundering between the U.S. down through Central America and the Caribbean (and China, believe it or not) into Colombia for the sole purpose of making sure dollars make their way back to the cartels in Colombia.

Some middle man making a million dollars for his end of the business here in the U.S. - this is a drop in the bucket compared to what the cartel people in Colombia are making.
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