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Old 09-04-2019, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
740 posts, read 697,027 times
Reputation: 934

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Yes, there is. I watch Argentine movies and understand them (with the exception of some slang). Take a listen to the following clip - is there anything you don't understand? You'll be hard pressed to find two totally different dialects - Argentine and northern New Mexican - but they are mutually intelligible.
Huh? Of course they are intelligible, when did I say the opposite? I even emphasized on the general understanding from a country to other. I’ve just said that there is nothing like a “standard”, “neutral” or “universal” Spanish.

The following sentences are both standard in their respective countries, but neither is neutral or universal. Everyone will understand the conjugations and the general idea, yet many may struggle to pick up what they were exactly arguing for.

¿Qué querés que te diga? No pueden pelearse porque vos querías comprar damascos y tu hermano, duraznos.

¿Qué quieres que te diga? No podéis pelearos porque tú querías comprar albaricoques y tu hermano, melocotones.
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Old 09-04-2019, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,211 posts, read 9,661,533 times
Reputation: 3236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhc1985 View Post
Huh? Of course they are intelligible, when did I say the opposite?
Maybe I misunderstood you. What I'm saying is that the standard Spanish is what allows an Argentine to understand a New Mexican, and a New Mexican to understand an Argentine.

Quote:
The following sentences are both standard in their respective countries, but neither is neutral or universal.
¿Qué querés que te diga? No pueden pelearse porque vos querías comprar damascos y tu hermano, duraznos.

¿Qué quieres que te diga? No podéis pelearos porque tú querías comprar albaricoques y tu hermano, melocotones.
The only thing that is up for misunderstanding here are the nouns of the fruits. Otherwise both versions are perfectly understandable, even you are not familiar with "podéis" you'll very quickly realize what they're doing with the verb. None of us in NM use that type of conjugation, but we have no problem understanding it.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:07 AM
Status: "Life goes on..." (set 9 days ago)
 
5,542 posts, read 8,200,725 times
Reputation: 4349
The following map shows where the "S" is aspired (green) and where it isn't (blue). The countries in the box is Spain and Equatorial Guinea, and the rest are in Spanish America.

Basically, regions that received mostly Spaniards from Andalusia and the Canary Islands (these were mostly farmers and tended to travel as families especially from their homeland to the Spanish Caribbean) tend to aspire the "S".

With the case of Belize, it used to be part of Guatemala. Then the British arrived and did machinations to take that land away fro Guatemala, afterwards the British imported Africans and changed the population in many areas. This country has changed a lot by recent migration from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala; and intense emigration of Belizeans to the USA. Spanish is the main language spoken there now, though isn't official.

The British did the same thing on the Mosquito Coast, but Nicaragua later took over that land again. Americans did a similar thing to the Caribbean coast of Honduras and much of central Panama. Usually the African connection is strong with Jamaica in the Caribbean side of Central America. With the exception of Panama, African ancestry is rare in the Pacific parts of this region, where most of the population lives and always remained in Spanish hands and then became independent countries. Where the British/American influence was strongest the population becomes more mulatto and black with strong ties to Jamaica and the English Caribbean than elsewhere.


https://sites.google.com/a/geneseo.e...spiration-of-s

Last edited by AntonioR; 09-09-2019 at 08:19 AM..
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,211 posts, read 9,661,533 times
Reputation: 3236
A fair number of people in NM trace geneology back to the Canary Islands. (I noticed this when I was looking at geneology trees when I was at the cultural center last week.)

Texas, NM, CA, and AZ should really be included in that map. As probably should Florida because I imagine there were a lot of "original" settlers in Florida too.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,211 posts, read 9,661,533 times
Reputation: 3236
aab: Did you listen to those clips? Any thoughts?
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Old Today, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,037 posts, read 2,006,639 times
Reputation: 1093
Hey yeah, those clips were cool. I definitely hear more Mexican influence with a lot of what is said...I wonder though if that´s just a gradual evolutionary thing given the proximity to Mexico and the potential for contact with new arrivals.

Whenever I get up to NM I´m looking forward to going to the barrio and maybe getting the chance to speak with the locals, see how it sounds in the flesh. Thanks for finding all this.
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Old Today, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Pereira, Colombia
1,037 posts, read 2,006,639 times
Reputation: 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The following map shows where the "S" is aspired (green) and where it isn't (blue). The countries in the box is Spain and Equatorial Guinea, and the rest are in Spanish America.

Basically, regions that received mostly Spaniards from Andalusia and the Canary Islands (these were mostly farmers and tended to travel as families especially from their homeland to the Spanish Caribbean) tend to aspire the "S".

With the case of Belize, it used to be part of Guatemala. Then the British arrived and did machinations to take that land away fro Guatemala, afterwards the British imported Africans and changed the population in many areas. This country has changed a lot by recent migration from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala; and intense emigration of Belizeans to the USA. Spanish is the main language spoken there now, though isn't official.

The British did the same thing on the Mosquito Coast, but Nicaragua later took over that land again. Americans did a similar thing to the Caribbean coast of Honduras and much of central Panama. Usually the African connection is strong with Jamaica in the Caribbean side of Central America. With the exception of Panama, African ancestry is rare in the Pacific parts of this region, where most of the population lives and always remained in Spanish hands and then became independent countries. Where the British/American influence was strongest the population becomes more mulatto and black with strong ties to Jamaica and the English Caribbean than elsewhere.


https://sites.google.com/a/geneseo.e...spiration-of-s
And this map shows me what I´ve known all along...that not pronouncing the -S is just as common as pronouncing it, you can almost see that half of Latin America does and half doesn´t.

And yet somehow people who come from places where they aspirate the -S are told that their Spanish is "bad"; I used to aspirate the -S when I first got to Colombia, and was "corrected" so damn much that I just stopped doing it. It still comes out though when I talk to Venezuelans here, but the point I´m making I guess is that it´s really common and doesn´t need to be discouraged by anyone.
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Old Today, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,211 posts, read 9,661,533 times
Reputation: 3236
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
Hey yeah, those clips were cool. I definitely hear more Mexican influence with a lot of what is said...I wonder though if that´s just a gradual evolutionary thing given the proximity to Mexico and the potential for contact with new arrivals.
There's always been a lot of intermingling between "native" New Mexican Hispanics and Mexicans. Definitely a two-way influence. Prior to the Treaty of Guadalupe, the Camino Real between Chihuahua and Santa Fe was heavily used going both ways.
Quote:
Whenever I get up to NM I´m looking forward to going to the barrio and maybe getting the chance to speak with the locals, see how it sounds in the flesh.
Plenty of opportunity for that. You can also go to the little villages in northern NM. There are still old-timers up there who speak it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855 View Post
doesn´t need to be discouraged by anyone.
None of these things should be discouraged. My feeling is that if one region speaks in a particular way, it's perfectly valid.
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Old Today, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
13,299 posts, read 24,693,642 times
Reputation: 13129
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80skeys View Post
Plenty of opportunity for that. You can also go to the little villages in northern NM. There are still old-timers up there who speak it.
Are there any TV/radio stations in rural NM where you can hear NM Spanish spoken instead of the regular Mexican Spanish we normally hear here in the urban west?
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Last edited by Count David; Today at 04:54 PM..
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Old Today, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
6,211 posts, read 9,661,533 times
Reputation: 3236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Count David View Post
Are there any TV/radio stations in rural NM where you can here NM Spanish spoken instead of the regular Mexican Spanish we normally hear here in the urban west?
I don't know of any offhand. You might do a search for "radio stations based in Española". This would be the most likely place to host such a thing. You could also try radio stations based out of Taos, Cuba or Chama. Or maybe "radio stations broadcast from northern New Mexico" and call them up and see if they have a Spanish language segment.

If you find one, let me know, as I would be curious.
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