Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
VANTEXAN -Reread the second paragraph of my that you quoted. Please tell me how Argentina is "european" in terms of political, economic and social aspects?
Politics: Just about every Latin American country emulates European and U.S. forms of government. Administrative, legislative, and judicial branches. Most Latin American countries are dominated politically and economically by a small white minority. The biggest shift in power has happened in Bolivia, but that's still pretty dicey. Argentina on the other hand very much resembles countries like Italy with large protests, many parties, and socialist policies.
Economic: Argentina is one of the few countries in the world that is self-contained. They produce pretty much everything they need. Compare that with most Latin countries which are dominated by mineral or agricultural exports.
Social: Unlike many Latin countries the majority of Argentinians are only nominally Catholic. Much like most European Catholics. Uruguay also is much like Argentina but better managed.
Politics: Just about every Latin American country emulates European and U.S. forms of government. Administrative, legislative, and judicial branches. Most Latin American countries are dominated politically and economically by a small white minority. The biggest shift in power has happened in Bolivia, but that's still pretty dicey. Argentina on the other hand very much resembles countries like Italy with large protests, many parties, and socialist policies.
Economic: Argentina is one of the few countries in the world that is self-contained. They produce pretty much everything they need. Compare that with most Latin countries which are dominated by mineral or agricultural exports.
Social: Unlike many Latin countries the majority of Argentinians are only nominally Catholic. Much like most European Catholics. Uruguay also is much like Argentina but better managed.
Regards
This is completely untrue: Argentinians are not "nominally Catholic"; they may not attend mass every Sunday as in many other Latin American countries but their social values are 100% Catholic and their governmental policies reflect those Catholic social values (i.e. abortion is restricted specifically due to Catholic religious beliefs):
This is the exact opposite of the governmental policies that exist in European countries, in which abortion is only illegal in two countries: Ireland and Malta (no surprise about Ireland, which is staunchly Catholic).
This is completely untrue: Argentinians are not "nominally Catholic"; they may not attend mass every Sunday as in many other Latin American countries but their social values are 100% Catholic and their governmental policies reflect those Catholic social values (i.e. abortion is restricted specifically due to Catholic religious beliefs):
This is the exact opposite of the governmental policies that exist in European countries, in which abortion is only illegal in two countries: Ireland and Malta (no surprise about Ireland, which is staunchly Catholic).
They used to require that the president be Catholic but no more. Divorce was made legal in 1986, gay unions were allowed in Buenos Aires in 2002, even held the gay World Cup in 2007. I didn't say they kicked out the Church, just that the Church's influence is more comparable to Europe than most of Latin America. At any rate, they're overwhelmingly of European ancestry. Nothing superior about that, nothing inferior. But it's inaccurate to say they're mestizos who are in denial about their indigenous roots.
They used to require that the president be Catholic but no more. Divorce was made legal in 1986, gay unions were allowed in Buenos Aires in 2002, even held the gay World Cup in 2007. I didn't say they kicked out the Church, just that the Church's influence is more comparable to Europe than most of Latin America. At any rate, they're overwhelmingly of European ancestry. Nothing superior about that, nothing inferior. But it's inaccurate to say they're mestizos who are in denial about their indigenous roots.
I disagree about the Church's influence: I still think that Argentinian social values are very strongly influenced by Catholicism and are, therefore, more similar to those of other South American countries than Europe. I think they just want to be thought of as "european" b/c they think it's somehow superior and it also distances them from the rest of South America, which they associate with mestizo/indigenous populations and which also gives them (in their minds) an excuse for thinking of themselves as superior to their neighbors. So, in sum, I completely disagree with you; I think that they are very much in denial about their indigenous roots and that there is no conclusive evidence that Argentinians are more racially "european" than other South American countries.
Moreover, wrt social values, they are not European at all. While divorce may be legal, Argentinian social values still discourage divorce, which is still viewed as a no-no. Yes, an Argentinian can legally obtain a divorce but at a terrible cost, at least socially, where divorced individuals are often treated disrespectfully as a disgrace by both family and friends. However, this has caused a trend (that some might consider "european") for not getting married at all. And there also exists the practice of keeping a mistress, but I view this as more Catholic than european.
I will agree, though, that there is tolerance towards homosexuality, especially in B.A. But I found this to be true in many South American countries, not just Argentina.
So, in sum, I completely disagree with you; I think that they are very much in denial about their indigenous roots and that there is no conclusive evidence that Argentinians are more racially "european" than other South American countries.
That's an extraordinary view. I've just read that in 1895 that the population was 4 million and that 25% were immigrants. That between 1857 and 1930 over 6 million immigrated into the country, almost all from Europe. Over 1,300,000 were Italians who settled between 1876 and 1914. That 15% of the current population is mestizo, primarily in the northwest provinces, who are a mixture in Argentina of mostly criollos and indigenous. Criollos, as you know, are Spanish born in the New World. That's nothing to sneeze at, about 6 million people. And most immigrants today are from Bolivia and Paraguay. That's from the current Footprint Argentina Handbook, published in the U.K.. I've seen similar stats from numerous sources. I hope you don't think there's an international conspiracy to make average Argentines feel superior by claiming they're of European descent?
That's an extraordinary view. I've just read that in 1895 that the population was 4 million and that 25% were immigrants. That between 1857 and 1930 over 6 million immigrated into the country, almost all from Europe. Over 1,300,000 were Italians who settled between 1876 and 1914. That 15% of the current population is mestizo, primarily in the northwest provinces, who are a mixture in Argentina of mostly criollos and indigenous. Criollos, as you know, are Spanish born in the New World. That's nothing to sneeze at, about 6 million people. And most immigrants today are from Bolivia and Paraguay. That's from the current Footprint Argentina Handbook, published in the U.K.. I've seen similar stats from numerous sources. I hope you don't think there's an international conspiracy to make average Argentines feel superior by claiming they're of European descent?
Yeah, that last part made me chuckle; "conspiracy" is a very strong word. Moreover, I think that it is a bit of a low-blow to insinuate that someone is paranoid b/c they don't agree with you and/or question census "facts" and/or statistics, especially those from 1895 to 1930 when the technology to measure immigration was not what one would consider advanced and/or accurate. Moreover, there are numerous ways that populations can be excluded or missed when compiling a census, even today.
Nor do I think that there is an "international conspiracy" to make Argentines feel superior. If you have read my posts, I very clearly state that the initial label of "european" being applied to Argentinians was applied by Argentinians, and that they seem to have a vested interest in branding themselves--and their country--as "european." That is enough evidence for me to question data that supports claims that they are "european" in anyway b/c they are very clearly not objective when it comes to their ancestry. Argentinians very clearly want to be considered "european."
And as I stated in my previous post, even if the census statistics are correct and Argentina is very "european" wrt race, their culture is very clearly not what one would call "european." There is overwhelming evidence to the fact that, regardless of their racial makeup, their cultural/social values are more similar to those of other South American countries.
I completely agree with you that Argentines and Argentina are not European (in any sense of the word).
Well, I'm glad to see that we're making progress. You're probably right, Argentines aren't Europeans culturally no more than white Americans are, although there are some similarities. But the majority of them are of European descent, although it's safe to say that most of them are at this point a mixture of various European ethnicities with a predominance of Italian and Spanish. U.S. whites run the gamut, but Germans, English, and Irish are most common.
I was holding tongue firmly in cheek with the "conspiracy" remark. But I think people should be proud of the positive aspects of their ancestry. Being mestizo doesn't make one morally superior either. There's a serious divide between mestizos and full-blooded natives in most Latin American countries. And the indigena usually come up short.
I have no idea what mechanisms Argentina used in Census taking. But I do know that the U.S. kept detailed records of immigrants coming through Ellis Island. That most nations kept such records. Pretty certain all those white folk coming off ships from Europe must have been asked by customs officials to register. Surefire way to collect fees!
Another monkey wrench. Argentina has a substanstial Jewish and Muslim population too. Maybe some of those darker looking folk you were seeing weren't European afterall!
Well, I'm glad to see that we're making progress. You're probably right, Argentines aren't Europeans culturally no more than white Americans are, although there are some similarities. But the majority of them are of European descent, although it's safe to say that most of them are at this point a mixture of various European ethnicities with a predominance of Italian and Spanish. U.S. whites run the gamut, but Germans, English, and Irish are most common.
I was holding tongue firmly in cheek with the "conspiracy" remark. But I think people should be proud of the positive aspects of their ancestry. Being mestizo doesn't make one morally superior either. There's a serious divide between mestizos and full-blooded natives in most Latin American countries. And the indigena usually come up short.
I have no idea what mechanisms Argentina used in Census taking. But I do know that the U.S. kept detailed records of immigrants coming through Ellis Island. That most nations kept such records. Pretty certain all those white folk coming off ships from Europe must have been asked by customs officials to register. Surefire way to collect fees!
Another monkey wrench. Argentina has a substanstial Jewish and Muslim population too. Maybe some of those darker looking folk you were seeing weren't European afterall!
I am still wary of census data, which is/was compiled by people who might be racist and, therefore, not objectively recording data. Even worse, the names that were recorded were anglicized or completely changed, which makes it difficult to say with certainty where each immigrant came from. Moreover, a lot of data wrt ethnicity is not recorded. The only way that the U.S.--or any other country--could get an accurate picture of a country's ethnicity would be for everyone to take DNA tests. And even then, there is the chance that people are excluded or exclude themselves.
I also think that Argentina should be proud of their mestizo ancestry but the truth is, most of them are not. They consider mestizos "black" and inferior for all of the same reasons that other peoples consider black individuals inferior. It is actually a HUGE problem in all of Latin America, which is why most people are completely unaware that there are huge black populations in Latin American countries, because a lot of these nations don't want to admit that these black populations exist.
Which brings me to Argentina. As I stated before, I really do believe that most Argentinians have an interest in branding themselves as "european." Most of it actually has to do with the same racist attitude that I mentioned above. "European" to an Argentine means "white" and, also, "progressive, "sophisticated," "educated" etc. Because they value being "european" rather than mestizo or black, they assert that they are "european," and will do any and anything to present that as a fact.
Yes, Argentina's immigration is similar to that of the U.S.--there are many, many ethnic groups living in Argentina. However, none of them are black (I had one Argentine proudly tell me that "There are no black people in Argentina.") The mestizo populations exist but they live--for the most part--in poverty and are discriminated against. Now, if you knew that being mestizo meant that you would be discriminated against, or you grew up being told that being mestizo was bad or inferior, how much would you self-indentify with your ethnic group? And would you classify yourself as "mestizo" to a census taker? Probably not. Moreover, mestizos are not confined to specific areas but are all over Argentina. There are concentrated populations in specific areas but someone of mestizo heritage can be found throughout Argentina (and Latin America). I know this from first hand experience, which is why I remain skeptical about census statistics. I have seen a lot of ratings, statistics, etc. that do not reflect reality and have been manipulated based on self-interest.
And I don't know what you meant by that "progress" comment but I found it very offensive as I understood it to mean that b/c you thought that you had convinced me of a possibility that Argentines might be European wrt race that this was somehow "progress" on my part. If that's what you meant, then that is really rude and patronizing. If you meant that we were making progress b/c you thought that we were steering towards a consensus, then I will have to disapppoint you again. While I think that there might be a very, very small possibility that Argentines are "european" wrt race, I remain skeptical of any and all data that supports such a claim b/c Argentina (like many other Latin American nations) is very clearly racist and does not want to be anything other than "european" or "white." As I have illustrated here, much of this so-called data does not represent the reality that I have seen for myself.
Which brings me to my next question: have you ever even been to Argentina or had a lot of contact with Argentinians and their culture?
Very interesting discussion. And I like the fact that, while there are disagreements, no one is being troll-ish, unlike some discussions on these boards which descend into gibberish.
However, in regards to race in Latin America and Argentina specifically, the region may get its "come to Jesus" moment very soon thanks to the latest wave of immigration: from Africa. And I'm guessing we're going to be seeing a wave of Haitian refugees throughout North and South America as well. It already seems to be a hot topic among those who write about Latin America:
For Africans seeking better lives, Latin America is the new grail - World - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/story/1394988.html - broken link)
I am still wary of census data, which is/was compiled by people who might be racist and, therefore, not objectively recording data. Even worse, the names that were recorded were anglicized or completely changed, which makes it difficult to say with certainty where each immigrant came from. Moreover, a lot of data wrt ethnicity is not recorded. The only way that the U.S.--or any other country--could get an accurate picture of a country's ethnicity would be for everyone to take DNA tests. And even then, there is the chance that people are excluded or exclude themselves.
I also think that Argentina should be proud of their mestizo ancestry but the truth is, most of them are not. They consider mestizos "black" and inferior for all of the same reasons that other peoples consider black individuals inferior. It is actually a HUGE problem in all of Latin America, which is why most people are completely unaware that there are huge black populations in Latin American countries, because a lot of these nations don't want to admit that these black populations exist.
Which brings me to Argentina. As I stated before, I really do believe that most Argentinians have an interest in branding themselves as "european." Most of it actually has to do with the same racist attitude that I mentioned above. "European" to an Argentine means "white" and, also, "progressive, "sophisticated," "educated" etc. Because they value being "european" rather than mestizo or black, they assert that they are "european," and will do any and anything to present that as a fact.
Yes, Argentina's immigration is similar to that of the U.S.--there are many, many ethnic groups living in Argentina. However, none of them are black (I had one Argentine proudly tell me that "There are no black people in Argentina.") The mestizo populations exist but they live--for the most part--in poverty and are discriminated against. Now, if you knew that being mestizo meant that you would be discriminated against, or you grew up being told that being mestizo was bad or inferior, how much would you self-indentify with your ethnic group? And would you classify yourself as "mestizo" to a census taker? Probably not. Moreover, mestizos are not confined to specific areas but are all over Argentina. There are concentrated populations in specific areas but someone of mestizo heritage can be found throughout Argentina (and Latin America). I know this from first hand experience, which is why I remain skeptical about census statistics. I have seen a lot of ratings, statistics, etc. that do not reflect reality and have been manipulated based on self-interest.
And I don't know what you meant by that "progress" comment but I found it very offensive as I understood it to mean that b/c you thought that you had convinced me of a possibility that Argentines might be European wrt race that this was somehow "progress" on my part. If that's what you meant, then that is really rude and patronizing. If you meant that we were making progress b/c you thought that we were steering towards a consensus, then I will have to disapppoint you again. While I think that there might be a very, very small possibility that Argentines are "european" wrt race, I remain skeptical of any and all data that supports such a claim b/c Argentina (like many other Latin American nations) is very clearly racist and does not want to be anything other than "european" or "white." As I have illustrated here, much of this so-called data does not represent the reality that I have seen for myself.
Which brings me to my next question: have you ever even been to Argentina or had a lot of contact with Argentinians and their culture?
No, I'm just an information junkie who did alot of research over a year's time investigating Argentina as a place of retirement. Moderator cut: personal references not necessary It's beyond me that you deny what's recognized by virtually everyone that millions of people immigrated to Argentina, that Argentina had a policy of ethnic cleansing, virtually removing and killing various native groups. The result being a large country virtually devoid of human life having whites move in from Europe. There's a reason the indigenous mixed with Spanish criollos in the northwest. That was one of the 2 major entry points for the Spanish empire, the other Buenos Aires. But outside that area natives were either decimated by disease, killed by military campaigns, or driven to the remotest parts of the country. Were there mestizos in other parts of the country? Sure, early on with a limited amount of women in the colony there had to be some mixing. Surely some moved down from the northwest looking for work. Most likely many of the gauchos were mestizo. Gauchos massacred settlers moving into their areas. It was such a problem at one point that British immigration dried up. The country's character might be considerably different if British immigration has continued. The question remains that if millions immigrated from Europe into a land with a very small population, virtually devoid of native peoples by the time they arrived, how in your opinion did they become mostly mestizo? Argentina isn't the same as Mexico or Peru or many other Latin American countries where there were very large native populations. And you should look closely at people in Spain or southern Italy. Have you not heard the description of "olive" complexion given to many Mediterranean whites? Have you not seen the actress Penelope Cruz from Spain? The tennis player Rafael Nadal? If someone asked me to guess their nationality I would guess Mexican or somewhere in Latin America if I didn't already know. I'm sorry, but you seem to want to punish Argentinians for wanting to be perceived as white. Well they are white, and they have just as much right to claim their heritage as anyone else. And since 3/4ths of the country's heritage is from Italy or Spain, stands to reason that you are seeing vestiges of the Moorish conquest of southern Europe in the complexion and bone structure of many Argentines.
Last edited by Cornerguy1; 01-17-2010 at 07:15 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
