railroad crossing...train horn blowing (Kingman: how much, costs, lawsuits)
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Nobody should get any sleep as long as the few morons who shouldn't cross where they're not supposed to anyway are saved!
Well, I sort of agree with this, except I don't think those people should die, if for no other reason than the train crews would have to witness it... and you never know who's kid it might be.
Railroad safety is something that is too often ignored, and too many people think it is ok to trespass on the tracks. Unfortunately, that's the way it is, and so the train should be (and is) required to sound their horn.
I guess if those folks want sleep they should not live where they do. Don't live near the tracks. Don't live in a town with railroad tracks. The trains were there first. That's not a hard concept.
Well, I sort of agree with this, except I don't think those people should die, if for no other reason than the train crews would have to witness it... and you never know who's kid it might be.
Railroad safety is something that is too often ignored, and too many people think it is ok to trespass on the tracks. Unfortunately, that's the way it is, and so the train should be (and is) required to sound their horn.
I guess if those folks want sleep they should not live where they do. Don't live near the tracks. Don't live in a town with railroad tracks. The trains were there first. That's not a hard concept.
You seem to be awfully hung up on this "Don't live in a town with railroad tracks" mantra. That's NOT the issue in Kingman. The quiet zone is being assessed by the city council for business purposes, not for residences. Rt66 in downtown Kingman is pretty much a ghost town right now, and most of the business have moved out. So there's an effort afoot to revitalize it. The train noise has been identified as a real detriment in that area, because it's like 50' from the tracks. Let me tell you, the horn blasts hurt your ears there. And there is precedent for this. Flagstaff has already implemented a quiet zone in their downtown, and the Kingman city council persons who've visited it say it's really nice. THAT'S what's going on in Kingman, so I would appreciate it if you would drop this "don't live there" nonsense.
On the issue of kids playing on tracks, that can be easily mitigated by using fences instead of horns. All the downtown areas I've ever seen have the tracks fenced off. 99.9% of the tracks in this country are out in open country where there are no fences and trains don't sound horns.
You seem to be awfully hung up on this "Don't live in a town with railroad tracks" mantra. That's NOT the issue in Kingman. The quiet zone is being assessed by the city council for business purposes, not for residences. Rt66 in downtown Kingman is pretty much a ghost town right now, and most of the business have moved out. So there's an effort afoot to revitalize it. The train noise has been identified as a real detriment in that area, because it's like 50' from the tracks
Kingman was founded as a siding along the Atlantic and Pacific Railroad in 1882. The line now belongs to the BNSF and the subdivision is called the Seligman Sub.
Businesses have been along those tracks in Kingman, with all the train noise, for only about 130 years. Why is this "all-of-a-sudden" a problem? Why wasn't train noise a "real detriment" to downtown Kingman businesses 100 years ago? 75 years ago? 50 years ago? Why is it only a problem now?
I don't buy any of this garbage. But if Kingman wants to place noise levels above the safety of people, I guess that's on them. If Kingman wats to force a less-safe working environment on the train crews, I guess that's on them. I completely disagree and believe it is unethical, but it's legal, so there you go.
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Flagstaff has already implemented a quiet zone in their downtown, and the Kingman city council persons who've visited it say it's really nice.
I wonder if it's still nice when somebody unnecessarily dies....
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so I would appreciate it if you would drop this "don't live there" nonsense.
Absolutely not. It's common sense that says if you don't like train noise, don't live near the tracks, don't work near the tracks, don't shop near the tracks, don't live in a railroad town. It's like living near an airport and complaining about plane noise, or living near a horbor and complaining about marine noise, or living near a freeway and complaining about road noise, etc.
I will never understand that line of thinking, nor do I have sympathy for it.
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On the issue of kids playing on tracks, that can be easily mitigated by using fences instead of horns. All the downtown areas I've ever seen have the tracks fenced off. 99.9% of the tracks in this country are out in open country where there are no fences and trains don't sound horns.
The problem with the fences are 1) who pays for it and 2) kids climb fences, making the situation potentially even less safe. Even so, if a city wants to put up a fence, I'm all for that. I wonder if that is part of Kingman's plan.
Also, train crews keep their eyes out for trespassers, and sound their horns when they see them.
Businesses have been along those tracks in Kingman, with all the train noise, for only about 130 years. Why is this "all-of-a-sudden" a problem? Why wasn't train noise a "real detriment" to downtown Kingman businesses 100 years ago? 75 years ago? 50 years ago? Why is it only a problem now?
Maybe because train horns have gotten louder?
Read this:
"So Why Is the Horn Louder Than It Used to Be?
So, if the FRA didn’t require the horn to get any louder, and they want the engineer to blow less, why is it louder in town? Two reasons:
First, there has been a change in the type of locomotives, and the engineer can no longer control the volume of the horn.
The second reason is due to management who are demanding more horn use (and we have to comply) to minimize liability.
I don't buy any of this garbage. But if Kingman wants to place noise levels above the safety of people, I guess that's on them. If Kingman wats to force a less-safe working environment on the train crews, I guess that's on them. I completely disagree and believe it is unethical, but it's legal, so there you go.
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I wonder if it's still nice when somebody unnecessarily dies....
As far as I'm concerned, that has not be proven.
Read this.
"However, one Federal Railroad Administration study has shown that the frequency of grade crossing accidents increase in areas where quiet zones are in effect.[1][2] The study fails to account for other factors that were also introduced at the same time which may have also accounted for the reduction in accidents during the same period the study measured.[3][4][5][6] Additionally, the measurements were based on accidents at grade-crossings, which are very low numbers overall to begin with. A grade-crossing that had two accidents during the comparison years, that were contrasted with only one accident during the control period would statistically yield a high percentage-wise improvement in safety, when in reality, it was the difference in only one accident for that grade-crossing. " Source: Train whistle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So that blows your safety arguments clean out the window.
Well, the trains were there first, and the town likely would not exist if not for the trains (that's Kingman history).
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Well, "Dangtrains.com" is probably not the most unbiased source to site. However, the "type of trains" does not matter, it's the type of horn. We can discuss the history of that if you'd like. Basically, there are only a handful of different horns that have been used since the 1930's when desiel-electric locomotives started to replace steam locomotives. The horns have not "gotten louder" over the last 40 or so years. The loudest, the five-chime horn, is not commonly used anymore, and not in use whatsoever by the BNSF.
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and the engineer can no longer control the volume of the horn.
The engineer never has had control over the volume (maybe in the steam days....), I have no idea what you are talking about.
As far as the engineer "having a button to turn the horn on or off" that was an option on some GE locomotives. I'm pretty sure (I'll have to ask to verify) that GM never offered that feature. It was unpopular with train crews so not many were ordered, and I'm not sure if GE is even still offering that feature, or if railroads are ordering the locomotives that way. It's possible that the BNSF may not even have that feature on any of their locomotives, since they prefered GM locomotives over GE.
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The second reason is due to management who are demanding more horn use (and we have to comply) to minimize liability.
Train crews are required by federal law to sound their horn at all crossings starting at the "whistle post" (a sign marked with an "x" or "w") until the locomotive enters the intersection. That's all trains on all railroads in every state. It has nothing to do with "management".
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As far as I'm concerned, that has not be proven.
It has not been proven, but it hasn't been disproven either. Either way, it's a theory, but one would think "safety first". Like I quoted earlier:
"...City Council will need to weigh the trade-offs, as a single tragedy at a railroad crossing will have a significant impact in our community."
None of the "noise complainers" seem to think about that.
The railroad's themselves believe it is less safe, is there any reason we should not believe them? Why would we listen to some city counsilman over the people that operate the line daily?
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So that blows your safety arguments clean out the window.
Again, it doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's all theory, until someone can produce the actual studies (and it still may be theory at that point). If there's a doubt, the safest option should be picked, IMHO. I guess you don't agree with that, and that is your right.
my point is no UNNESSARY heavy blowing... a full 20 seconds of blowing is not needed when nobody is near the tracks... a toot toot to toot of light horn usage should be fine for most times. the law that requires all the heavy blowing needs to be modified... i'm sure that engineers are plenty qualified to know when heavy blowing is needed. when i drive a truck i consider the possible danger and have sounded the horn when needed. (lights too..) i don't drive thru winslow blowing my horn at every street crossing. (i have been tempted...)
The railroad's themselves believe it is less safe, is there any reason we should not believe them? Why would we listen to some city counsilman over the people that operate the line daily?
That's not the question. Quiet Zones are constructed to federally mandated standards. The only thing the city council needs to decide is whether to implement those standards.
The real reason RRs are against quiet zones is probably because train engineers just like to toot their horns. That's probably why most of them took the job. TOOT! TOOT!
The real reason RRs are against quiet zones is probably because train engineers just like to toot their horns. That's probably why most of them took the job. TOOT! TOOT!
Well, I know you are joking here....
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That's not the question. Quiet Zones are constructed to federally mandated standards. The only thing the city council needs to decide is whether to implement those standards.
That is true. It's my understanding that the Federal Railroad Administration is not fond of 'quiet zones' but they are mandated by Congress to have standards and allow towns to implement them when they meet these standards. So it's not the railroads, not the railroad oversite agency, but a bunch of elected politicians that make quite zones possible.
Like I said, the railroads don't believe they are safe. These are the folks that work day-in and day-out on the lines....
Like I said, the railroads don't believe they are safe. These are the folks that work day-in and day-out on the lines....
Well, that is one useful thing I've learned here. So thanks for that. I'm here to learn.
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(i have been tempted...)
