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Old 11-11-2010, 09:10 AM
 
1,292 posts, read 3,460,408 times
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The difference in incarceration rates between the poor and the middle class has other factors involved than unequal representation - I would guess that all people have an equivalent level of criminal intent, whatever their socioeconomic status. Having grown up poor, I can tell you there are as many or more honest poor people as there are middle-class or above. The criminal ventures available to the poor tend to be violent and/or drug-related crimes, which are more easily investigated and prosecuted than white-collar crimes. When the poor become involved in quasi-white collar crimes, such as identity theft, their arrest and conviction rates drop sharply. Likewise, when the middle-class become involved in violent crime that is outside their comfort level of criminal sophistication (such as bank robbery to maintain a lifestyle), they tend to get arrested and convicted very quickly.

 
Old 11-11-2010, 01:47 PM
 
2,942 posts, read 6,497,660 times
Reputation: 1214
Quote:
The REASON you are are unaware of the other political spectrum models is BECAUSE you only get your Political Model from folks on the Right - who want to dump all the "bad guys" on the OTHER SIDE.
ANY ONE with ANY decent knowledge of PolySci KNOWS about the various political models. It's BASIC BASIC Political Science. Maybe you should consider getting an education and actually learning Political Science from a REAL source instead of just FOX news.


Actually, it was from college classes and textbooks, but whatever. You obviously have it set in your mind that if someone disagrees with you that they are ignorant and only know whatever it is they know because they watch a particular news station. I'm sure CNN and MSNBC are unbiased and providing only accurate facts to you....

Quote:
And yet you are making proclaimations based on the "estimates" as if they were somehow MORE than "estimates". The fact is, they could be VERY POOR estimates (NO ONE KNOWS).
It is my understanding that the +/- on the estimate is not very large. But, you are right, nobody knows for sure, just like a lot of things in life.

Quote:
That's simply YOUR OPINION (nothing more).
It's my opinion based on first-hand knowledge (which is probably more than what your opinion is based on, but whatever).

Quote:
So, I guess that mean that OJ would have still gotten off in the murder trial of Nicole & Ron if he'd had a court appointed lawyer? Don't be naive. Not all lawyers are created equal, and there is no way an overworked public defender is able to spend anywhere near the time & effort into a case that a private lawyer can.
Maybe, maybe not. As I said, your arguement is a logical fallacy. You are also suggesting (or downright saying) that some very hard working, dedicated, educated, prefessionals are Goobers, unable of doing their job well. I don't buy this arguement, and if I were a court-appointed attorney I'd be quite offended at your comments.

Quote:
The fact is however that there is NO CRIME WAVE going on in this country.
Crime is LOWER than it was 20 years ago (even though the population - both legal AND illegal - is GREATER) - and THAT is a fact.
People that claim otherwise (usually simply for political gain) are LIARS or VERY POORLY INFORMED - pure & simple.
If it is not that certain criminals should get a pass because our crime rate is low, what ARE you trying to say then? What does the current crime rate have to do with anything?

I also wanted to revisit your arguement that made me first post on this topic: eliciting the name "NAZI".
You arguement, placed in it's most simpliest form, is two-fold:
1) Illegal Immigrants are being victimized by those who oppose illegal immigration, want the border secure, and are against amnesty, and
2) If one is oppesed to illegal immigration, wants the border secured, and are against amnesty, then they are equal to NAZIs.
Am I right? If not, what is different?
There are numberous problems (logical fallacies) with your arguement. Are you suggesting that those who want illegal immigration stopped and illegal immigrants deported are racist murderers? Are you suggesting that folks who want illegal immigration stopped and illegal immigrants deported are against immigration altogether? Are you suggesting that those who want illegal immigration stopped and illegal immigrants deported also are for euthanasia? What are you suggesting exactly?

If you are suggesting those things, that is 100% nonsense and b.s., completely in the opposite direction of the truth.
 
Old 11-11-2010, 03:47 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 26,249,154 times
Reputation: 7621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritchie_az View Post

Actually, it was from college classes and textbooks, but whatever. You obviously have it set in your mind that if someone disagrees with you that they are ignorant and only know whatever it is they know because they watch a particular news station. I'm sure CNN and MSNBC are unbiased and providing only accurate facts to you....



Bullsh*t.
I call you ignorant because you ARE ignorant. You CLEARLY don't know ANYTHING about Political Science. ANYONE with even a tiny bit of knowledge of Political Science KNOWS about the different political spectrum models - ANYONE. You have NO KNOWLEDGE of Political Science - NONE. You've CLEARLY NEVER taken a proper class in the subject nor even probably cracked open a textbook (either college or even high school) nor even done any independed research on the subject - otherwise you would KNOW that there are all kinds of different political models. Discusssion of the various political spectrum models is about as BASIC as Political Science gets. It takes all of 10 seconds to do a Google or Bing search on "political spectrum" and see the dozens & dozens of different political spectrum models out there.

In any event, since you are obviously too lazy to even bother looking up the various political spectrum models, here's a link:
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q...og&sa=N&tab=wi

And since you don't believe me, here's a quote from noted Conservative Derek Haynes from his blog "The Conservative Thinker" as he discusses the simplistic Left/Right political spectrum model that you seem to only be familiar with:

"The political spectrum is a way of analyzing different political philosophies and describing how they are alike and different. Most of us are most familiar with the right-wing/left-wing portrayal of the American political spectrum. Typically we associate right-wing with conservatism and the Republican party and left-wing with liberalism and the Democratic Party. Often we assign colors to this spectrum: red = Republican and blue = Democratic."
"What many of us don’t realize is that the American political spectrum is much broader than this representation. In fact, conservatism and liberalism occupy only the center of the spectrum. Historically, the term liberalism encompassed both what we call today liberalism and conservatism – that is both modern conservatism and modern liberalism used to be under the classic liberalism banner."
"As we fill in the missing ends of the simple political spectrum model, we see the addition of socialism, libertarianism, communism, fascism, totalitarianism, etc. Once we add these to the simple model, the model seems to no longer describe the spectrum adequately. This is seen as we get to the outer edges of the model. When compared, the ends seem to be very similar instead of extremely different – almost as if the spectrum is a circle where the ends bend around and touch each other."


Notice the basic poltical spectrum he's talking about (you can see it on the webpage I've linked to) - It's the same TRADITIONAL Political Spectrum I learned back on College with Communists on the Left & Fascists on the Right) And remember - this is a CONSERVATIVE writing that. The difference between HIM and the YOU is that HE is an EDUCATED CONSERVATIVE.

Spectrum of American Political Thought | Conservative Thinker (http://conservative-thinker.com/blog/polictical-spectrum/ - broken link)



If it is not that certain criminals should get a pass because our crime rate is low, what ARE you trying to say then? What does the current crime rate have to do with anything?

I also wanted to revisit your arguement that made me first post on this topic: eliciting the name "NAZI".
You arguement, placed in it's most simpliest form, is two-fold:
1) Illegal Immigrants are being victimized by those who oppose illegal immigration, want the border secure, and are against amnesty, and
2) If one is oppesed to illegal immigration, wants the border secured, and are against amnesty, then they are equal to NAZIs.
Am I right? If not, what is different?
There are numberous problems (logical fallacies) with your arguement. Are you suggesting that those who want illegal immigration stopped and illegal immigrants deported are racist murderers? Are you suggesting that folks who want illegal immigration stopped and illegal immigrants deported are against immigration altogether? Are you suggesting that those who want illegal immigration stopped and illegal immigrants deported also are for euthanasia? What are you suggesting exactly?

If you are suggesting those things, that is 100% nonsense and b.s., completely in the opposite direction of the truth.



I made a NAZI reference because that's EXACTLY the way NCN was behaving. Here's my post about her:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
I AM sticking with logic and reason AND a pretty substantial knowledge of HISTORY. The tactics shown by the poster in question are pretty much identical to those of the NAZIs in pre-war Germany:

1) Pick out an unpopular minority
2) Blame them for pretty much everything you can
3) Exaggerate the facts and make up lies to support your position
4) Accuse those who disagree with you of being disloyal to the country
5) Claim the current government is in cahoots with the minority in question.

It's all right there in NCN's posts.
I know WAY too much about history - especially WWII history - to simply stand by and watch those same racist tactics used here in MY country. America is WAY better than that.

Ken
That's EXACTLY what the NAZI's did regardomg the Jews and that's EXACTLY what NCN was doing in regards to illegal immigrants.

If the shoe fits...

Ken
 
Old 11-11-2010, 04:35 PM
 
2,942 posts, read 6,497,660 times
Reputation: 1214
Quote:
I call you ignorant because you ARE ignorant.
Wow. As the saying goes, we are all ignorant of something.
There's not much worse than arrogance and ignorance, though.

Good luck to you, Ken, and your NAZI witch hunt. Oh, watch out--there's one behind you! Wait, sorry, it was just an average Joe who believes that the law applies equally to all. Still, apparently, there is not much difference between that person and racist, murdering, euthanizing, militant extremists.
Oh, Ken, there's another one! Watch out!

Good grief!

Quote:
You've CLEARLY NEVER taken a proper class in the subject nor even probably cracked open a textbook (either college or even high school) nor even done any independed research on the subject


This is a logical fallacy: belittle the person instead of the arguement. This kind of logical fallacy may be the worst, and is questionably against the TOS of C-D. You clearly have no idea what classes I have or have not taken or what books I have or have not read, just like I have no idea about anything you've done or not done.
 
Old 11-11-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 26,249,154 times
Reputation: 7621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritchie_az View Post
Wow. As the saying goes, we are all ignorant of something.
There's not much worse than arrogance and ignorance, though.

Good luck to you, Ken, and your NAZI witch hunt. Oh, watch out--there's one behind you! Wait, sorry, it was just an average Joe who believes that the law applies equally to all. Still, apparently, there is not much difference between that person and racist, murdering, euthanizing, militant extremists.
Oh, Ken, there's another one! Watch out!

Good grief!



This is a logical fallacy: belittle the person instead of the arguement. This kind of logical fallacy may be the worst, and is questionably against the TOS of C-D. You clearly have no idea what classes I have or have not taken or what books I have or have not read, just like I have no idea about anything you've done or not done.
Sorry, but it's OBVIOUS you've not taken a class in Political Science. As I said, the existance of multiple different political spectrum models is as basic as Political Science gets - PERIOD. If you are unaware of the existance of different models there is NO WAY you've taken PolySci - NO WAY (not while being AWAKE anyway). It would be like claiming you had taken a class in 20th Century History but never heard of WWII.
You are certainly free to believe in ANY political model you want - but make no mistake about it - there is NOT JUST ONE SINGLE political spectrum model. There are MULTIPLE different models - ALL of them imperfect in one way or another (that's why Political Scientists can't AGREE on a single model). DUH!

Regarding NAZI witch hunts - if someone ACTS like a NAZI, I'll point it out. IF you don't think that NCN was doing the same thing the NAZI's did, tell me how. Did NCN do the things I said she did?
I think the answer is clearly YES (it's ALL right there in her posts).
Did the NAZIs use those very SAME tactics against the Jews?
Again, I think the answer is clearly YES.
If she doesn't want to be compared to a NAZI maybe she shouldn't BEHAVE like a NAZI.

Ken
 
Old 11-11-2010, 06:29 PM
 
2,942 posts, read 6,497,660 times
Reputation: 1214
Quote:
Sorry, but it's OBVIOUS you've not taken a class in Political Science.
Shows just how much you know.

It's obvious to me, Ken, that you've never graduated from High School. Maybe not even Middle School. You don't even know how to start a post without using a logical fallacy. Do you have the basic ability to use reason and logic?
I'm just using that to illustrate your logical fallacy, and to show how your effort to discredit me (as in, my character) instead of my arguement goes nowhere and is distractionary.

Quote:
if someone ACTS like a NAZI
You tell me when someone here is trying to kill off a race of people. Then talk to me about NAZIs. Frankly, if I were a Jew I'd be offended at your casual accusations and use of the word. But, whatever.
I'm done here. Good luck in your witch hunts.
 
Old 11-11-2010, 08:07 PM
 
422 posts, read 1,268,112 times
Reputation: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Actually I have TWO degrees: A Bachelor of Arts in History and a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science - and I understand "logical fallacy" quite well thank you very much. And my criticisms of you are not so much directed towards your CHARACTER but rather towards your obvious lack of KNOWLEDGE.

I notice you did NOTHING to actually refute the fact that:
1) NCN did the things I pointed out
or
2) That that was EXACTLY the tactics the NAZIs used.

Hmmmmm.

Bye, bye.

Ken
Ken,

Sounds to me like it is time for you to sell your property in J6 and pick a different retirement location. From your viewpoints on our issues I can clearly see, you will not be happy here. You will have a very hard time seeing eye to eye with most of the locals here in southern AZ.

Good luck to you.
 
Old 11-11-2010, 08:12 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 26,249,154 times
Reputation: 7621
Quote:
Originally Posted by xwideopenskyx View Post
Ken,

Sounds to me like it is time for you to sell your property in J6 and pick a different retirement location. From your viewpoints on our issues I can clearly see, you will not be happy here. You will have a very hard time seeing eye to eye with most of the locals here in southern AZ.

Good luck to you.
Hey, I ABSOLUTELY agree that the borders need to be controlled and that illegal immigration needs to end. What I have a problem with is people lying & misleading the public with bullsh*t in order to achieve such goals.

Are you saying the folks in J-6 have a problem with HONESTY & TRUTH?


Ken
 
Old 11-11-2010, 08:23 PM
 
13,167 posts, read 21,729,175 times
Reputation: 14051
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Don't get me wrong. I DO believe that we need to have a WHOLE LOT better security on the border and I DO understand that drugs DO pour in over the borders and that there MUST be control over who comes into the country & under what circumstances. There is NOTHING wrong with a desire for ANY of that - BUT, I'm student of history (I actually intended to TEACH it at one point) - and as a big-time WWII buff for most of my nearly 56 years, I see WAY TOO MANY parallels between the BS fear-mongering being spewed by the extreme Rightwing TODAY against illegal immigrants and the BS fear-mongering being spewed against the Jews by the NAZI's in Prewar Germany. SSDD.

Yes, illegal immigration NEEDS to be stopped - but NO, illegal immigrants have NOT brought a huge wave of crime to this country - and ANYONE who gets on their soapbox making such wild claims is either ignorant of the facts or an outright LIAR. The fact is EVEN WITH all the illegal immigration that's gone on over the last decade or two, the crime rates nationwide are WAY DOWN from what they were 20 years ago and there is NO REASON for people to live in FEAR every moment of their lives (let alone to spread bullsh*t gossup aimed at panicking people (simply for POLITICAL GAIN in my opinion). And the constant barrage of crime-related news stories just FEED that paranoia - making us into (as I said) a nation of COWARDS afraid of EVERYTHING.

We CAN control the borders WITHOUT becoming PANICKED & PARANOID about it.
The REAL key to controlling illegal immigration is NOT to demonize the IMMIGRANTS (MOST of them JUST WANT A JOB & a BETTER LIFE). Every time you round one up and ship him/her back, there's another to take their place. It's a pointless merry-go-round that will just continue to suck up money & resources and never really SOLVE THE PROBLEM. The key to controlling illegal immigration is to come down hard on the EMPLOYERS who time & time again HIRE THEM. Whatever happened to enforcement of the Arizona law meant to DO THAT?

If you want to eliminate illegal immigration you need to SHUT DOWN the businesses that repeatedly HIRE THEM. There was lots of TALK about that when the Arizona Law was enacted a couple of years ago but what became of it all (sounds like it was just ALL TALK).

Ken
You know, a cynic might say the very same politicians who are supported by the private prison industry lobbyists and who are behind SB1070 are intentionally sand-bagging on going after employers because it would be bad for the prison business.
 
Old 11-11-2010, 08:43 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 26,249,154 times
Reputation: 7621
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog View Post
You know, a cynic might say the very same politicians who are supported by the private prison industry lobbyists and who are behind SB1070 are intentionally sand-bagging on going after employers because it would be bad for the prison business.
Well, I don't really know much about the whole "private prison" deal - but I DO find it pretty distressing that after all the hype about the "Illegal Immigrant Worker Law" that was designed to crack down on illegal immigration (by depriving them of work by targeting employers who HIRE illegal immigrants) that apparently NOTHING has HAPPENED.
WTF?????
It's like its just suddenly doesn't exist.

This was a law that (in my opinion) FINALLY was taking the right approach. Constantly rounding up illegal immigrants is dumb. They are just replaced almost IMMEDIATELY by OTHER illegal immigrants so it's an ENDLESS merry-go-round. The answer is to go after the EMPLOYERS. Illegal immigrants have nothing to lose by coming here and working. The worst that can happen to them is that they are sent home (and then they just return again). Loss of a business license however is pretty strong deterent to employers and could be a VERY EFFECTIVE TOOL - but ONLY if the LAW is actually ENFORCED. And apparently it's NOT being ENFORCED.

Folks here may think I'm somehow pro-illegal immigration simply because I detest the tactics used by the anti-illegal immigration crowd. The truth is I'm 100% against illegal immigration but also 100% against hate-mongering against the illegals & fear-monger aimed at Americans. I'm also of the opinion that focusing on the illegals themselves is pointless & simply doesn't work. To solve the problem we need to go after what is LURING the illegal immigrants HERE - and THAT is the JOBS.

I don't disagree with the goal of preventing illegal immigration, but I DO strongly disagree with the TACTICS.

I do have to say however that I AM of the opinion that a child that is born & raised here IS an American (PARTICULARLY if they have been here a LONG TIME) - and in THAT regard I DO disagree with many of the anti-illegal immigration crowd.

Ken

Last edited by LordBalfor; 11-11-2010 at 09:03 PM..
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