What's happening to Arizona? (wages, living, legal)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have spent a lot of time in Arizona since I was a kid. I love it as much as I love my home state of California but things like this are unbelievably disgusting!
Read more: Arizona lawmakers propose another tough illegal immigration law | AHN (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/briefs/articles/90032540?Arizona%20lawmakers%20propose%20another%2 0tough%20illegal%20immigration%20law - broken link)
It'll never stand up in court. It's not the states' right to determine US citizenship. This law doesn't have a chance in hell (or in Arizona either). It's just political bombast.
And that's a fact.
It is not the kids fault. Now I do agree with 1070, and if you are illegal, be sent home. That does not interfere with the constitution. I don't care what anyone says, it does not. I am asked for a drivers if when I am pulled over, just like everyone else, I have to have it one me. But thats another argument.
Here is an idea... The constitution can be changed... If you are for SB1070 then this law effectively closes the loophole for immigrants. Without this law, SB1070 is rendered completely and utterly ineffective on any practical level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BacktoBlue
If someone is born in this country they are American. If someone lives in this country, they are American. what does it mean to be American? What kind of country are we? How did we come to be? Our founding fathers were immigrants and I'm pretty sure we didn't have the Native American's permission to be here so why is Arizona working so hard to fight what we naturally are? What happened to give me your poor and tired and all that good stuff that we used to stand for, that the statue of liberty should represent? Yes, we have our problems, but Arizona shouldn't be one of them. If they don't like it, they can go be their own country because this is America and we are the land of the free and home of the brave. What does that mean to you?
Well, how do you propose to pay for social security benefits, medicare, etc. if we just let anyone from any country come here and become a citizen? Lots of legal immigrants are already abusing the system and benefits that we have here by bringing their elderly grandparents or parents here from overseas, so they automatically get these benefits even thought they had never paid into it. From a fiscal perspective I think it is not feasible to accept everyone into this country with full citizenship, even some of the legal ones!
However, if we get rid of all benefits from taxpayer funds (welfare, SS, Medicare/aid, free schooling for kids) and just allow people to work and live here without giving them any assistance, it might be okay. But I don't think they would want to come here as much.
This law has not even a snowballs chance in hell of passing.
Then you have no real reason to be upset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BacktoBlue
The costitution clearly states that ANYONE born here is an American citizen.
It is not clear about that at all. For example, native americans have an exemption in the amendment. And certainly the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" has a purpose.
The intent of the 14th amandment was to overturn the Supreme Court decision of Dread Scott vs. Sanford, which denied Black slaves citizenship and full representation. The 14th amendment gave citizenship and full government representation to freed African-Americans. That was very good. And there are other good parts of the 14th amendment, too.
With regard to citizenship, the important phrase is "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof", which was ignored in the court's decision with regard to illegal immigrants. If someone is not legally allowed into this country, they are not granted the rights of a citizen, and are not subject to the jurisdiction of this country. Their jurisdiction is subject to the country they came from. So the other parts ("All persons born or naturalized in the United States... are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") do not apply to them.
If the proposed Arizona law passes or a similar one in a different state, it will be interesting to see what shakes out after it has been legally challenged and ruled upon by the Supreme Court (which is where it would likely end up).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BacktoBlue
They may huff & puff but this is a hateful smoke screen for the real agenda they hold. They currently h...ave a fragile hold on Arizona as
a republican stronghold. The minority is a minority no more.. The only way to win politically for them is to scare the hell out of brown skinned people and get them to leave the state. In that way the white man
will again be in the majority. Look at every decision brewer and her
cartel has made. Cut education, keep our kids dumbed down, remove
any and all opportunities to get affordable medical care, Right now today in Arizona there is no county hospital. All hospitals are owned privately and they can and do refuse care to the poor. Doctors are denying care by refusing to accept the indigent medicaid program.
They did illegal roundups of immigrants, any with any means fearing
for an immigrant member in their family relocated to New Mexico &
California. eventually with enough fear mongering the population will
be majority white and they will maintain political power.
They however have not considered one important thing. The working
class is shrinking that has always been and will always be the foundation. With no foundation their top heavy house of cards Falls...
Yeah, it sounds like you have a real prejudice problem. This is not "whites vs browns". Sorry. I'm in a mixed race hispanic family, and the vast, vast majority of hispanics in my family are against illegal immigration, and supported S.B. 1070. I'll have to ask around and see exactly what they think of this proposed law. My hunch is most, if not all, will agree with it.
If someone is born in this country they are American. If someone lives in this country, they are American. what does it mean to be American? What kind of country are we? How did we come to be? Our founding fathers were immigrants and I'm pretty sure we didn't have the Native American's permission to be here so why is Arizona working so hard to fight what we naturally are? What happened to give me your poor and tired and all that good stuff that we used to stand for, that the statue of liberty should represent? Yes, we have our problems, but Arizona shouldn't be one of them. If they don't like it, they can go be their own country because this is America and we are the land of the free and home of the brave. What does that mean to you?
Um, that was a poem and not official U.S. policy. Sounds to me like you need to crack open a history book or two....
Status:
"dashing, dastardly bastard"
(set 20 days ago)
Location: SWUS
5,086 posts, read 2,721,597 times
Reputation: 5288
Even though it has no chance of passing, I'd support the birthright citizenship in this country being overturned.. I'd go look for my post from a while back about SB1070 and someone saying the Southwest belonged to Mexico and should be returned or something (I know, unrelated, but it was a pretty good post actually), but that would take a while. I'll keep it short and sweet.
We won the West fair and square. We made also few purchases here and there to make our current Union look like it does.. As for Mexicans being here before us? Correction- there were Native Americans and SPANIARDS here. When Spain ceded ownership of parts of the western US and it became Mexico's property, Mexico never did anything with it. It sat. And sat. And sat. There was a lot of activity along the Rio Grande and perhaps farther out west along the bottom of CA and AZ, but nothing major was ever done to make the Southwest inherently Mexican (aside from food similarities and perhaps some other stuff..) the architecture, the food, and several other things are more Native American/Spanish-influenced than anything else.
I don't have a problem with people being here on work visas and such, or even with illegal immigrants personally.. it's just that I have seen quite a bit of abuse of the system by these people.. not so bad here in NM but when I lived in CA I saw a *lot* of it. What is the OP's opinion of the current New Mexico governor, Susana Martinez, and her stances on illegal immigration?
It is not clear about that at all. For example, native americans have an exemption in the amendment. And certainly the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" has a purpose.
The intent of the 14th amandment was to overturn the Supreme Court decision of Dread Scott vs. Sanford, which denied Black slaves citizenship and full representation. The 14th amendment gave citizenship and full government representation to freed African-Americans. That was very good. And there are other good parts of the 14th amendment, too.
With regard to citizenship, the important phrase is "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof", which was ignored in the court's decision with regard to illegal immigrants. If someone is not legally allowed into this country, they are not granted the rights of a citizen, and are not subject to the jurisdiction of this country. Their jurisdiction is subject to the country they came from. So the other parts ("All persons born or naturalized in the United States... are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") do not apply to them.
If the proposed Arizona law passes or a similar one in a different state, it will be interesting to see what shakes out after it has been legally challenged and ruled upon by the Supreme Court (which is where it would likely end up).
Yeah, it sounds like you have a real prejudice problem. This is not "whites vs browns". Sorry. I'm in a mixed race hispanic family, and the vast, vast majority of hispanics in my family are against illegal immigration, and supported S.B. 1070. I'll have to ask around and see exactly what they think of this proposed law. My hunch is most, if not all, will agree with it.
Good for them. I am half Hispanic and Half White. My whole family is against both laws as well as my Hispanic friends and my white friends on the East Coast are even against it. I'm not sure what you are trying to say but not everyone agrees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miyu
Here is an idea... The constitution can be changed... If you are for SB1070 then this law effectively closes the loophole for immigrants. Without this law, SB1070 is rendered completely and utterly ineffective on any practical level.
.
Yes, it can be changed. Americans are so hypocritical and contridictory. You all want to have guns and carry them around because the constitution says so. Yet you want the constitituion to be changed for the illegal immigration law? That's not fair at all. I say if you change the constitution that way then it should be changed for gun control. Fair is fair.
Status:
"dashing, dastardly bastard"
(set 20 days ago)
Location: SWUS
5,086 posts, read 2,721,597 times
Reputation: 5288
Quote:
Originally Posted by BacktoBlue
Good for them. I am half Hispanic and Half White. My whole family is against both laws as well as my Hispanic friends and my white friends on the East Coast are even against it. I'm not sure what you are trying to say but not everyone agrees.
Yes, it can be changed. Americans are so hypocritical and contridictory. You all want to have guns and carry them around because the constitution says so. Yet you want the constitituion to be changed for the illegal immigration law? That's not fair at all. I say if you change the constitution that way then it should be changed for gun control. Fair is fair.
Completely different issue altogether...but I digress. Have any of your friends on the East Coast actually ever lived here or do they think that way because all of us citizens of the Southwest are made to be totally racist and unwelcoming by and large due to media coverage of SB1070?
The 14th Amendment was only necessary because judges were wrongly interpreting U.S. law (not just Dred Scott vs Sanford, but some other cases as well). The 14th Amendment did not actually break any new ground (well, not much new ground, anyway). It simply clearified already exisiting laws that were being interpreted badly. This set us back on course of the original intentions.
The 14th Amendment starts out with citizenship. It says you must have two things in order to be a U.S. citizen:
1) Be born or naturalized in the U.S.
2) Be subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.
If you don't meet those two things first, you are not a U.S. citizen.
The 14th Amedment is a good law and it is written well. However, the interpretation of the law by a judge is where I have a problem. It is ironic, though, that the very amendment that was meant to clearify wrongly interpreted U.S. law now needs to be clearified itself.
I think the proposed Arizona law may be a vehicle to that clearification.
Yes, it can be changed. Americans are so hypocritical and contridictory. You all want to have guns and carry them around because the constitution says so. Yet you want the constitituion to be changed for the illegal immigration law? That's not fair at all. I say if you change the constitution that way then it should be changed for gun control. Fair is fair.
Meh, as far as I am concerned the right to bear arms should be written out of the constitution as it is irrelevant in our day and age. As should the right to citizenship by birthright, another totally outdated idea.
But you haven't answered about the practicality of things. You want the govt to provide things for the people but if everyone from Mexico (and Africa, Southeast Asia, Middle East, Africa) just suddenly flooded into Arizona and started having kids, who is gonna take care of everyone financially? Schools would be flooded, jobs would be scarce for all the immigrants... nobody would have any resource for giving the new people even the most basic healthcare and surely they can't pay for it themselves. It would be total chaos... I mean you are okay with opening up the border to non-Mexicans too, right? Or is this a Mexico-only thing?
Hum...I too am Hispanic. My family has lived in the south west for generation. But you are right, when you say everyone wants to throw these "Brown skins" out.
But I think a lot of people are just missing the boat. Let stop and revisit exactly what the 14th amendment say...All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
Jurisdiction is the practical authority granted to a formally constituted legal body or to a political leader to deal with and make pronouncements on legal matters and, by implication, to administer justice within a defined area of responsibility. (Wikipedia)
Illegal immigrant is a person who has entered the country without official authorization. Federal immigration law provides means by which certain aliens can become naturalized citizens with full rights of citizenship.
Ok, now that we got that out of the way, you will be able to see exactly what some of these terms actually mean.
I dont' want to keep beating a dead horse. But, as a Hispanic living in the Valley of the Sun, has forced me to find work out side of the state. Oh, I'm never going to sell my house, but inorder for me to pay for it, I have to live and work out of the state, so does my wife.
Would be love to work at home...yes? But we when we submit resumes with our Hispanic name on them, guess how many call backs we get? That right, a big fat zero!
In fact, they would rather hire a Canadian in my field, then me. No I'm not crying in my soup. I have a job outside of the state, make payment on a house with two cats. Yes that's right, two cats, and yes, I have a cat sitter.
If you are back, you will see that this goes on all the time. Not to put down my own people, but I have learned that they are a society what lives with a "Survival of the Jungle" mentality. The only sad part about this is that they all have a..now dare you have something better them me and if I have too, i will keep you from getting more then me way of life.
Now don't get me wrong, the Hispanic people are loving people, they will open up their house for you. But for you yes, for their neighbor...no. Why, beacuse they trust you, you are from America. But they won't trust their neighbor because he knows they will steal from him. So, he doesn't allow this and you see this type of mentality all over Mexico.
You even see it in their driving. If you turn on a blinker to get over, they all of a sudden go into an Indy car driver mode and you are cut off. Why? Because this means you will be one car in front of them, and the Hispanic male ego will not allow that...It makes him look weak and being taken advantage of. So, they have this "Dog eat Dog" thing going on. My Hispanic mother calls it the "Fire Hydrant" mentality. Every Hispanic male has to mark is territory before he moves on to the next hydrant.
I can understand why they leave in droves across the border during the Summer time, hoping to get out before the others grab them and pull them back. I can probably write a book on this...but I think you will not have the time. I have already taken too much of your time on this.
For me...if you are not here Legally, I think that might qualify you as an Illegal...I think. But I think it's always, the have nots are the ones that are trying to give everything away that you own. Just so that things can be of equal ground. I don't have anything and now you don't too.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $53,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If you are for SB1070 then this law effectively closes the loophole for immigrants. Without this law, SB1070 is rendered completely and utterly ineffective on any practical level.
