How do you like Flagstaff? (Phoenix, Sun City: condo, credit, hotels)

[FlagResident]

I've seen a lot of posts about the cost of living in Flagstaff, but no numbers (although I admit I didn't read all 11 pages of posts). So here's what you're up against, as of July, 2009. A small 1 bedroom apt. (about 530 sq. feet) runs $700, utilities included (Ponderosa Pines). The average 1 bedroom apt. (about 650 sq. feet) runs $775 (Forest Meadows) up to $925 (Sterling Point and Highland Village). Most are in the $800-$870 range. Some may include "free" cable, or water included, but for the most part, utilities are extra. The average home price is about $300,000, but you can find some homes (small, crappy ones) in the mid-200's, and the nice ones are $500-800,000 and up. The average income for a family of four is about $47,000, but I have seen lower stats. I personally rent an $800/mo apt. that, according to a real estate friend who visited me last year, would be worth about $500-550/mo in her city. In the winter my rent + utilites push $1000 a month. I work at NAU and make about $40,000 a year and as of yet (6 yrs of employment) I have not been able to save up any money. I can save a few hundred, but a car repair, or visiting my family for Christmas will clean me out of months of savings. The only way to get ahead is to cram 2-3 people into a 2 bedroom apt., or 4-6 people into a 4 bedroom house. I'm 41 years old and am stunned that with 2 college degrees and over a decade of experience that I need ROOMMATES to make ends meet here. That's cool if you're 23, but not when you're 40+. My $40k a year is about $10k a year less than the average pay at ASU or UofA for the same job position, not to mention both Tucson and Phoenix are about 15% cheaper to live in than Flagstaff. To make things equal, and to be making the average value for my position, I'd need to be making $55,000 in Flagstaff. And that just ain't going to happen. I'll be leaving town at the end of the next academic year. I refuse to live like this any more. The "poverty" just isn't worth the "view".

[fcorrales80]

I hear you FlagResident. At least you have a plan and while I do not envy your situation, the Flagstaff lifestyle for many is as you live and many of these folk relish in the opportunity. I for one would not be satisfied with your situation but know many people who would. AND like you said, they would tend to be 20 somethings and not in their 40's.

That being said, Flagstaff was ranked as one of the best cities for work and to start a business; for small cities at least. This comes at no surprise to me. I have many friends on both ends of the spectrum. Many work for government or public entities and live simply. Other has started businesses or have used their degrees to land great positions in public and private ventures. Flagstaff does have that community first feel that tends to marginalize some of the population. Flagstaff reminds me of a tiny Portland or a tiny 1980's Seattle. Seattle no long fits this profile as they have become a very dense, and large city more inline with Boston, Philly, etc. However, Flagstaff is tackling some tough issues right now and the "smart growth concept" is only one guidebook to follow. As Flagstaff is virtually landlocked by public land, it cannot continue to sprawl. In my book a VERY good thing. But, where to put future residents. I believe in the not too distance future, there will be LOW-rise, NOT high-rise, dense development in the cities core areas. However, this is a tough place for Flagstaff to be; deciding how to make a future in such limited dimensions. Growth and pro-business culture will have to be a part of the general plan despite city opposition.

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

"Flagstaff reminds me of a tiny Portland or a tiny 1980's Seattle."
"However, Flagstaff is tackling some tough issues right now and the "smart growth concept" is only one guidebook to follow. As Flagstaff is virtually landlocked by public land, it cannot continue to sprawl. In my book a VERY good thing. But, where to put future residents."
"Growth and pro-business culture will have to be a part of the general plan despite city opposition."

Great comments. Flagstaff has plenty of room to grow within and outside of its City limits. Due to public opposition, the town isn't growing that much.

Smart growth means wider sidewalks, wider roads, gravelscaping, and impact fees, resulting in more expensive housing, rents, and food.

Albuquerque, Boulder, and Durango also have smart growth, and have experienced increased housing costs and rents.

The situation is very discouraging for young people in the Southwest - myself included - trying to find places to live and start businesses.

College students who find themselves in college towns w/o Superwallmarts (Boulder; Flagstaff; Santa Fe) are being ripped off by conventional grocery stores.

Born and raised in Seattle, I wouldn't compare Flagstaff to Seattle, except for the VERY similar forests and nice scenery. Flagstaff is a very peaceful place, and NAU is a great University.

Seattle is both liberal *AND* also pro-business, pro-growth. They allow housing developments of hundreds of thousands of homes all the time up there, cutting down mature 60 year old Douglas Fir forests.

Seattle is strongly pro-union, and MOST grocery receipts go to the unionized Fred Meyer, Safeway, and Costco - NOT to Wallmart, Albertsons, and Bashas. You don't have as many tree huggers in Seattle, like you see in the twin art/college cities of Flagstaff, Santa Fe, and Boulder.

Personally, I wouldn't describe Flagstaff, Santa Fe, and Boulder as "liberal," since on the West Coast, to be a liberal means you are:
A) pro-union
B) pro-blue unionized collar manufacturing jobs (these SW aforementioned college towns hate blue collar folk and industry; Boulder just passed a carbon tax that will hurt the poor)
c) pro-gay rights
d) pro-international trade (Free or not is a seperate debate!)
e) against many impact fees and other taxes on construction ... i.e. the little guy trying to make a living as a contractor in a pickup truck - Boulder taxes you for remodelling your kitchen!

I got knocked off a Flagstaff forum for proposing my pro-business, liberal views. I've quickly learned that "liberals" down here are different: they are tree huggers, and not generally pro-blue collar manufacturing jobs / pro-construction, and they are not as interested in philanthropic activities, homeless shelters, and gay rights. I've concluded that it's not worth advocating these causes, when faced with overwhelming public opposition. Agree? Disagree? Just chill out and enjoy the gorgeous scenery and PERFECT weather.

For example, Realtor Allen Ginsberg was attacked by so called liberal Dan Frazier's Tea Party group for wanting to build the new Flagstaff YMCA. Frazier was also chased by Bill O'Reilly's film crew in Flagstaff, I don't understand that one either. It's not worth trying to figure it all out.

Down here, Albuquerque and Denver are probably the most "liberal" when it comes to ECONOMIC liberalism (free market Adam Smith capitalism).

In fact, take a look at how ABQ is weathering the recession! --
Smart Growth: Cities WITHOUT Smart Growth, OR, 'Wards of the State' (like Albuquerque, WDC) are Weathering The Recession: http://tiny.cc/XBtgS

Anyway ... much of the above is discouraging to those of us from the West Coast and New England. There is a West Coast version of Liberalism that's pro-business, pro-growth, more people-oriented, and very different. HOWEVER ... diversity in political opinion is what makes this country great

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

Personally, I wouldn't describe Flagstaff, as "liberal," since on the West Coast, to be a liberal means you are:
A) pro-union
B) pro-blue unionized collar manufacturing jobs (these SW aforementioned college towns hate blue collar folk and industry; Boulder just passed a carbon tax that will hurt the poor)
c) pro-gay rights
d) pro-international trade (Free or not is a seperate debate!)
e) against many impact fees and other taxes on construction ... i.e. the little guy trying to make a living as a contractor in a pickup truck - Boulder taxes you for remodelling your kitchen!

Very good. You are finally coming to recognize that Flagstaff IS NOT LIBERAL - nor, does it desire to be. And inasmuch as Arizona is a Right to Work state, being "pro union" is not necessarily a benefit - it can be a detriment in fact.

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

I got knocked off a Flagstaff forum for proposing my pro-business, liberal views. I've quickly learned that "liberals" down here are different: they are tree huggers, and not generally pro-blue collar manufacturing jobs / pro-construction, and they are not as interested in philanthropic activities, homeless shelters, and gay rights. I've concluded that it's not worth advocating these causes, when faced with overwhelming public opposition.

You did not get "knocked off" anywhere Tom. Your advocating your "liberal bent" was met with stiff opposition as you were trying to come into an area and tell those in that area how they should live. You did not take into account that they already had their own way of living and you are and outsider -- and a presumptive one at that. You condemned their way of life - the choices on growth that they made - and told them they were all wrong - and that you, the outsider, were right and that the city (Flagstaff) should change their ways because YOU, a "Liberal" said so.

Frankly Tom, the biggest part of your problem is your arrogance - you are right and everyone else is wrong - and you could not handle the fact of others telling you they did not like "your way".

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

"But, where to put future residents. I believe in the not too distance future, there will be LOW-rise, NOT high-rise, dense development in the cities core areas. However, this is a tough place for Flagstaff to be; deciding how to make a future in such limited dimensions. Growth and pro-business culture will have to be a part of the general plan despite city opposition."

What are you thinking about by "low-rise" developments vs. high-rise? Boulder and Durango have 3-4 story infilling - how many stories do you propose?


I've thought about Sattelite cities around Flagstaff. How about expanding Munds Park, Forest Highlands/Kachina/Mountainaire, Williams, Bellemonte, Winona area, and other sattelite areas OUTSIDE the city limits to 10,000 people each?

Such areas have easy interstate access, so building out of the area wouldn't clutter the roads with traffic, unlike infilling would INSIDE the city limits (just look at Boulder and the 8 lane congested boulevards).

I-17 and I-40 near Flag essentially have no traffic, so adding development outside the city limits doesn't increase traffic on Rt. 66 !

I would love to see Flagstaff figure out a way to increase, and accommodate an increased population, yet still retain the character of a small town. I think that this sattelite cities concept would prevent heavy traffic within the city limits, that would otherwise occur if a US EPA Smart Growth template was followed.

I don't think infilling of 4 story condos (as in Durango along the Animas River, and the hills NE of downtown) is a good thing - it looks cluttered and artificial. Same thing with Vail, CO; Dillon/Silverthorne, CO; etc.

The really good thing that Flag and Santa Fe, NM have going for them are excellent freeway systems that funnel traffic on the perimeter of the city Compare that to Boulder where it's a mess, since everyone living in the US EPA Smart Growth Template Infill condos (i.e. Smart Growth Online) still wants to park and drive a Subaru outback!

What do you think?

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

I've thought about Sattelite cities around Flagstaff. How about expanding Munds Park, Forest Highlands/Kachina/Mountainaire, Williams, Bellemonte, Winona area, and other sattelite areas OUTSIDE the city limits to 10,000 people each?

One problem Tom: The land for such expansion is not available. Nor, will be.

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by Greatday

"Your advocating your "liberal bent" was met with stiff opposition as you were trying to come into an area and tell those in that area how they should live. You did not take into account that they already had their own way of living and you are and outsider -- and a presumptive one at that. You condemned their way of life - the choices on growth that they made - and told them they were all wrong - and that you, the outsider, were right and that the city (Flagstaff) should change their ways because YOU, a "Liberal" said so.

I voiced my opinions and some people agreed, others disagreed. I didn't criticize or try to change anyone's viewpoints, I simply offered my own viewpoints. About half of people in Flag agree with me, and half disagree.

I deeply resent that you call me arrogant, because that is the last thing that I am. You may see it this way, because my views are not those of most Arizonans.

I'm not the only transplant with similar ideas. Allen Ginsberg, Realtor, is from back east. He's been trying to build a YMCA for years. So called "liberals" such as Dan Frazier attack Ginsberg with his Tea Party newsletter.

The Flag Chamber of Commerce is pro-business, and has issues with the City which is not as pro-business.

First and foremost I am a listener, and I try to understand the politics in different areas of the US. Seattle and Flagstaff are 360 degrees apart. Santa Fe and Boulder are also very different from Seattle. It is what it is, and I even said in the previous post that it's not worth trying to change things.

Other towns in the SW are more economically progressive (liberal, meaning pro-business), such as Durango, Denver, and Albuquerque.

Flagstaff has important decisions to make. I don't know how they will get along and reach a consensus on these important issues. It's a debate that I do not want to be involved with unless someone wants to pay me as a consultant, but that's a waste of taxpayer money! LOL It will be interesting to see if the Coasters there who are trying to change the place for their business interests will succeed or not.

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by Greatday

One problem Tom: The land for such expansion is not available. Nor, will be.

It is available, but would require significant, controversial zoning changes to smaller lot sizes. I am not an expert in the re-zoning process, however, it's doubtful that the locals, City Council, and Coconino County will want more housing, since they are anti-business / anti-growth / anti-sprawl / and pro-smart growth. The rich "liberals" are beyond tree huggers, and do not have any concept of economic development. Flagstaff isn't Albuquerque or Seattle. We'll see.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

It is available, but would require significant, controversial zoning changes to smaller lot sizes.

Actually Tom - it is not available. The boundaries of the areas you outlined are Forest Service lands - public trust lands. Literally it would take an act of Congress to release them - and Congress is not likely to do that anytime into the future.

In fact, Forest Service lands jut into Flag now -

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Actually Tom - it is not available. The boundaries of the areas you outlined are Forest Service lands - public trust lands. Literally it would take an act of Congress to release them - and Congress is not likely to do that anytime into the future.

In fact, Forest Service lands jut into Flag now -

Again it's how a Seattlite would solve the problem vs. someone in Flagstaff. We'd just re-zone the horse farms in the surrounding communities to residential, in order to accommodate more housing.

In pro-business seattle, more housing is always good since it means that more engineers and scientists will move in and help the economy. But people in Flagstaff and Santa Fe do not think this way, yet there's nothing wrong with that.

There are fundamentally irreconcivable philosophical differences, as they say. I'm still a tree hugger, I do eat meat, and people always come before pine trees, and affordable low and middle class housing is #1 ahead of any other form of development - always, no exceptions !

That's what got me kicked off the "other" forum since I advocated Costco and Superwallmart to decrease grocery prices in Flag. The "rich liberals" on the "other" list hate big box stores; I guess they prefer groceries to remain expensive for the poorest amongst us. I guess they have no sense of social justice, and it just makes me sick, but I withold judgement and instead try to find people who think like me.

In Seattle, we love our Unionized Fred Meyer and Costco. Arizonans don't, but are still entitled to their opinion. It's a free country. So...there's just no middle ground here, and Durango, Denver, and Albuquerque are MUCH more similar to Seattle in terms of their pro-business attitudes.