How do you like Flagstaff? (Phoenix, Mesa: hotel, neighborhoods, buy)

[fcorrales80]

Greatday is right in this matter Tom. Flagstaff is indeed encircled by U.S. Forest Service land, public trust land, and other private holdings that would make development on them nearly impossible and unreasonable.

As for Flagstaff becoming denser in the future, I do not forsee 20 or 30 floor Phoenix type condo/apartment high-rises, but dense, urban, and people conscious cityscapes. This can range in 2,4 and even up to 12 floor projects around the mall area as an example of feasible neighborhood creation. My prototype for the modern day cityscape would be the small, cobble-stoned enclaves of Boston and Philadelphia (minus the modern day expense of the cobble stoned streets) where generic is hardly an appropriate definition. Of course the enclaves of Flagstaff would be on a much smaller scale then the aforementioned large cities. NO doubt the design should embrace the neighborhood or area feel and design the exteriors to compliment the region and not make it feel artificial. Since downtown Flag is, for the most part, fully developed there would be limited alterations and addtitions to this historic part of town.

There is plenty of room for smart, dense, and eco-friendly development along the Route 66 corridor and around the Flagstaff Mall area. Small areas of infill dot the town near NAU's campus and along main streets through town. Low-rise, dense developments do not have to be immense in scope, but can be built in smaller projects to foster a unique and interesting landscape. Let me continue on my urban planning dream and propose a trolly or small "light rail" system that would traverse the city from the area of the mall on Route 66, continuing along the underpass transition to Milton Ave and chugging along past the busy Milton "business district" and University Drive (a main route into NAU). Think of the benefit of such a transit system on this extremely busy corridor and lifeline of Flagstaff! This stretch of road is often the epicenter of "congestion" in Flag and often what is a 2 minute drive from Target to NiMarco's or Alpine Pizza, becomes a 20 or 30 minute stop and go annoyance during peak tourist seasons; which can be all year, LOL.

Furthermore, as for the labeling of liberal, tree hugger, etc. etc. I would leave the labels at home man. LOL! No worries, it's just that many of the undeniably liberal citizens of Flagstaff would object to your splintering, categorizing, generalizations, over-simplification of personal choices and values, etc. of the populace a disservice. Flagstaff is very pro-gay, pro-environment (which is not a conservative stronghold), anti- WalMart development (Wal-Mart and chain business development being an arguably conservative business model) and other such liberal agendas as Flagstaff mainstays.

For instance, the difference with the "gay" community in Flagstaff is that it is very much integrated. There is no TRUE gay bar or club but the gays are welcomed and mix their nightlife amongst their straight peers. During Pride in the Pines, nearly all the bars in Flagstaff (especially in downtown and on main roads) welcome Pride revelers and fly the colors (the gay rainbow flag) in support of the Pride festivities. That to me is as pro-gay and genuinely inclusive/welcoming of the community as one hope to define and be a part of.

[fcorrales80]

LOL, Tom, I love your heartless interpretation of Seattlites rezoning horse and ranch property into commercial zones. I lived in Seattle for many years, graduated high school there, and have family members who are long time residents whom would strong dissagree with this interpretation of pro-business Seattle.

One major difference is that Seattle is a metro region of 3.4 million people, while Flagstaff at its largest is near 90,000. However, the equivalent would be to rezone, or as the most likely scenario in a city, condemn property in order to rezone low density residential neighborhoods. This would be like "rezoning" Capitol Hill or neighborhoods in West Seattle and allowing large research complexes like those in Renton and Auburn as long as they threw in some dense, modern, and generic mid-rise or high-rise housing units...an awful prospect, generic and a tragedy for the historic fabric of a community. What you proposed in Flagstaff would be the equivalent to what I proposed in Seattle.

[fcorrales80]

As for satellite cities in the small communities of Munds Park, Forest Highlands/Kachina/Mountainaire, Williams, Bellemonte, Winona area, and other sattelite areas OUTSIDE the city limits I would have to disagree. A few major reasons would be the availability of water, water retention issues, depletion of an entire region's water tables, and their general location within pristine pine forest. Building, maintaining, and ensuring the supply of water retention basins and tanks would be much more feasible, environmentally sound, and simply the right thing to do within the City of Flagstaff. Having sprawling communities encircling Flagstaff via freeways would be an environmentally irresponsible act. Traffic in the region would worsen as roads in and out of the communities would be extremely limited and often only one in-out route. OUCH!!!

[CCCVDUR]

[quote=fcorrales80;9691935]Greatday is right in this matter Tom. Flagstaff is indeed encircled by U.S. Forest Service land, public trust land, and other private holdings that would make development on them nearly impossible and unreasonable.

Perhaps re-zone or sell the land? Sorry I guess I'm too progressive on economic matters.

"Let me continue on my urban planning dream and propose a trolly or small "light rail" system that would traverse the city from the area of the mall on Route 66, continuing along the underpass transition to Milton Ave and chugging along past the busy Milton "business district" and University Drive (a main route into NAU). Think of the benefit of such a transit system on this extremely busy corridor and lifeline of Flagstaff!"

And railroad bridges N-S as well + extending the Lone Tree Corridor ?

"Furthermore, as for the labeling of liberal, tree hugger, etc. etc. I would leave the labels at home man. LOL! No worries, it's just that many of the undeniably liberal citizens of Flagstaff would object to your splintering, categorizing, generalizations, over-simplification of personal choices and values, etc. of the populace a disservice. "

They are not liberal by Seattle, Denver, Vegas, L.A., San Francisco, NYC, or Albuquerque standards. By continuing to exclude new businesses they can turn Flagstaff into another Vail, Boulder, or Aspen, and I would never want any part of such a transition.

They are not liberal, since they don't allow cheap grocery stores and are against cutting down more trees for affordable housing for the poor. That's just not liberal by Seattle standards, it's very conservative, favoring The Rich.

"For instance, the difference with the "gay" community in Flagstaff is that it is very much integrated. There is no TRUE gay bar or club but the gays are welcomed and mix their nightlife amongst their straight peers. During Pride in the Pines, nearly all the bars in Flagstaff (especially in downtown and on main roads) welcome Pride revelers and fly the colors (the gay rainbow flag) in support of the Pride festivities. That to me is as pro-gay and genuinely inclusive/welcoming of the community as one hope to define and be a part of."

I'm not so sure about that. Coming from Seattle, where gays are accepted everywhere, Flag is hardly inclusive of gays, when you compare it to Seattle, Albuquerque, Vegas, or Santa Fe, NM. Flag is a very unfriendly place for gays, the very conservative City Council didn't pass a pro-gay rights employment ordinance this spring. To my understanding, they don't even have a gay bar or GLBT community organization.

Flagstaff is a community run by very conservative LDS business interests, and it's simply not a place that liberal Jews or gays can ever be that comfortable. NOTHING wrong w/ the LDS; they have a proud tradition in northern AZ, and have contributed greatly to the history and economic development of the area. Flagstaff is a great town for LDS families. However if you are Jewish or gay, it's hard to do business there or get a job.

Look at the businesses there: many are LDS owned and operated: 4 Marriott Hotels, 2 Home Depots (but no Lowes!), Staples (but no Office Depot!), New Frontiers Natural Market (but no Vitamin Cottage or Whole Foods!), Little America Hotel, La Quinta Hotel, Arizona State Bank / Credit Union, Bashas, Albertsons, Fryes Foods (Kroger), etc. etc. Absolute Bikes has a life preserver symbol on their store logo (LDS?). North Country Health Care ("North Country" is prophetic in LDS teachings). Wespac Construction, the City's Contractor, has a Burgundy Triangular symbol. Many of the homes and commercial buildings in town are LDS colors of burgundy and dark green.

Anyway, best to head 5 hrs east to Albuquerque or Santa Fe if you're Jewish or gay ... or up to Denver or Boulder. Some LDS mom and pop businesses in Flag prefer to hire LDS members in their local stake. There is one Flagstaff stake with about 13 wards, and about 5 wards at NAU. Second choice: they hire NAU students. They probably won't hire gays, so I don't see how anyone can call Flagstaff gay friendly, when so many businesses are LDS owned and operated. Gays in Flag and most of AZ have to be closeted, or else never find work. Santa Fe and Albuquerque are both very gay, and New Mexico, Nevada, and Colorado all protect gays from employment discrimination (by state law). Arizona and Utah do not, because of the LDS influence.

[fcorrales80]

[quote=Tom Lane;9692045]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Greatday is right in this matter Tom. Flagstaff is indeed encircled by U.S. Forest Service land, public trust land, and other private holdings that would make development on them nearly impossible and unreasonable.

Perhaps re-zone or sell the land? Sorry I guess I'm too progressive on economic matters.

"Let me continue on my urban planning dream and propose a trolly or small "light rail" system that would traverse the city from the area of the mall on Route 66, continuing along the underpass transition to Milton Ave and chugging along past the busy Milton "business district" and University Drive (a main route into NAU). Think of the benefit of such a transit system on this extremely busy corridor and lifeline of Flagstaff!"

And railroad bridges N-S as well + extending the Lone Tree Corridor ?

"Furthermore, as for the labeling of liberal, tree hugger, etc. etc. I would leave the labels at home man. LOL! No worries, it's just that many of the undeniably liberal citizens of Flagstaff would object to your splintering, categorizing, generalizations, over-simplification of personal choices and values, etc. of the populace a disservice. "

They are not liberal by Seattle, Denver, Vegas, L.A., San Francisco, NYC, or Albuquerque standards. By continuing to exclude new businesses they can turn Flagstaff into another Vail, Boulder, or Aspen, and I would never want any part of such a transition.

They are not liberal, since they don't allow cheap grocery stores and are against cutting down more trees for affordable housing for the poor. That's just not liberal by Seattle standards, it's very conservative, favoring The Rich.

"For instance, the difference with the "gay" community in Flagstaff is that it is very much integrated. There is no TRUE gay bar or club but the gays are welcomed and mix their nightlife amongst their straight peers. During Pride in the Pines, nearly all the bars in Flagstaff (especially in downtown and on main roads) welcome Pride revelers and fly the colors (the gay rainbow flag) in support of the Pride festivities. That to me is as pro-gay and genuinely inclusive/welcoming of the community as one hope to define and be a part of."

I'm not so sure about that. Coming from Seattle, where gays are accepted everywhere, Flag is hardly inclusive of gays, when you compare it to Seattle, Albuquerque, Vegas, or Santa Fe, NM. Flag is a very unfriendly place for gays, the very conservative City Council didn't pass a pro-gay rights employment ordinance this spring. To my understanding, they don't even have a gay bar or GLBT community organization.

Flagstaff is a community run by very conservative LDS business interests, and it's simply not a place that liberal Jews or gays can ever be that comfortable. NOTHING wrong w/ the LDS; they have a proud tradition in northern AZ, and have contributed greatly to the history and economic development of the area. Flagstaff is a great town for LDS families. However if you are Jewish or gay, it's hard to do business there or get a job.

Look at the businesses there: many are LDS owned and operated: 4 Marriott Hotels, 2 Home Depots (but no Lowes!), Staples (but no Office Depot!), New Frontiers Natural Market (but no Vitamin Cottage or Whole Foods!), Little America Hotel, La Quinta Hotel, Arizona State Bank / Credit Union, Bashas, Albertsons, Fryes Foods (Kroger), etc. etc. Absolute Bikes has a life preserver symbol on their store logo (LDS?). North Country Health Care ("North Country" is prophetic in LDS teachings). Wespac Construction, the City's Contractor, has a Burgundy Triangular symbol. Many of the homes and commercial buildings in town are LDS colors of burgundy and dark green.

Anyway, best to head 5 hrs east to Albuquerque or Santa Fe if you're Jewish or gay ... or up to Denver or Boulder. Some LDS mom and pop businesses in Flag prefer to hire LDS members in their local stake. There is one Flagstaff stake with about 13 wards, and about 5 wards at NAU. Second choice: they hire NAU students. They probably won't hire gays, so I don't see how anyone can call Flagstaff gay friendly, when so many businesses are LDS owned and operated. Gays in Flag and most of AZ have to be closeted, or else never find work. Santa Fe and Albuquerque are both very gay, and New Mexico, Nevada, and Colorado all protect gays from employment discrimination (by state law). Arizona and Utah do not, because of the LDS influence.

LOL, I think greatday was right. You are arrogant. Sorry but no matter how PROGRESSIVE you may like to think you are when it comes to economic matters, you don't simply "rezone" U.S. Forest Service and State Trust Land! From there, you've lost credibility and your other responses are based on the idea that you are of the gentile Seattle liberal flock, and thus seated at the right hand of whatever creator or force of nature you believe in.

Albuquerque and Denver as bastions of liberalism, LOL, NOW I've heard it all. Having been stationed in New Mexico and Colorado while in the military and visited Albuquerque and Denver on dozens of occasions I for one can confirm the misperception of these cities (especially Albuquerque)as liberal cities. I am also gay and in both cities witnessed gay-bashing, mocking, name calling, harassing, and myself was attacked. Unfortunately for the attackers, I was trained in self defense extensively. Guess where I've never encountered even a hint of such hate and bigoted behavior...yep, Flagstaff and Phoenix.

I am gay and have lived in Flagstaff, please don't talk about things you obviously have no knowledge of. Flagstaff has multiple gay organizations and a gay chamber of commerce. Like I said before, Flagstaff isn't about segregation and thus we gays do not need our own bar in a city we are free and welcomed to go anywhere.

OH MY GOD, say it ain't so, there are mormons in Flagstaff...wow, lets start an inquisition. OH wait, they don't bother anyone nor are they the dominate political force in Flagstaff. Hmmmm, someone sounds like a bigot to me??? So much for that ultra Seattle version of liberalism that we aren't progressive enough to understand. LOL, what a joke! Again, Albuquerque as "very gay." Wow, I am still shocked by some of the nonsensical things I am reading. Wow, all my openly gay friends who are and aren't in committed relationships in Flagstaff must pretend to have jobs. One is mormon and is still welcomed by the family and community although doesn't attend Temple. Shame on YOU for presenting such a liberal view of the world yet adding weights to the scales of judgement.

So all those large businesses that cross state lines are mormon "strong" holds and proof of the mormon invasion and Mormon Inquisition that is currently sweeping Flagstaff???

"The very conservative City Council [did not] pass a pro-gay rights employment ordinance this spring?" In reality it was an ordinance to protect gays, lesbians, etc. from discrimination in areas of employment, housing, education and public accommodations. However, this would have been redundant and is an unnecessary legal feel good strategy so that some people will feel better about themselves and in many instances a misguided fear of discrimination in Flagstaff of all places. Most businesses, NAU, Coconino Community Colleges, City Government, Flagstaff Public Schools, and the list goes on already have gay rights verbage and offer their own protection for gay employees which include harassment and discrimination. In fact, these employers offer domestic partner benefits. None of my gay family or friends are homeless in Flag, so I don't see a need to protect us from housing discrimination. NAU, Coconino Community Colleges, as well as the local high schools have gay student organzations. But, I guess some people just need to really make sure all the redundancies are covered.

I wouldn't complain either way as gays are a part of the Flagstaff community. A bastion of liberal and pro-gay sentiment. However, in opposition to the city council vote, a rally and an initiative is being supported by the majority of Flagstaff residents to have the city council reconsider or a voter proposition will be submitted. Trust me, this city council ruling won't stand. Flagstaff is a very politically aware city with a citizenry that loudly and influentially demonstrate their civil rights and have the political will to actually have their majority voice considered and often approved. Oh, Flagstaff and Coconino County voted overwhelmingly for Barrack Obama, I guess the not so liberal, liberals didn't get the memo that they really are conservatives and were supposed to vote for McCain.

[Gandalara]

Originally Posted by FlagResident

In the winter my rent + utilites push $1000 a month. I work at NAU and make about $40,000 a year and as of yet (6 yrs of employment) I have not been able to save up any money.

May I respectfully suggest you visit the Frugal Living Forum?

Subtracting a high estimate of 30% for taxes and subtracting your rent/utilities, you should still have over $1300 a month remaining. Maybe a hard look at where your dollars are going?

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

There are fundamentally irreconcivable philosophical differences, as they say. I'm still a tree hugger, I do eat meat, and people always come before pine trees, and affordable low and middle class housing is #1 ahead of any other form of development - always, no exceptions

Well Tom, I'm afraid you are going to have a very difficult time trying to do business and live in Arizona - as we value land preservation - and saving land for recreational uses etc for future generations. There is NO NEED - None whatsoever, to do away with pristine wilderness to meet your schemes.

And while ranches and horses etc are not important to you, they are important to true Westerners.

IMO, you probably should seriously consider moving to places where your attitude is more acceptable - New England area perhaps.

[CCCVDUR]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

"Guess where I've never encountered even a hint of such hate and bigoted behavior...yep, Flagstaff and Phoenix."

"I am gay and have lived in Flagstaff, please don't talk about things you obviously have no knowledge of. Flagstaff has multiple gay organizations and a gay chamber of commerce. Like I said before, Flagstaff isn't about segregation and thus we gays do not need our own bar in a city we are free and welcomed to go anywhere. "

"OH MY GOD, say it ain't so, there are mormons in Flagstaff...wow, lets start an inquisition. OH wait, they don't bother anyone nor are they the dominate political force in Flagstaff."

"The very conservative City Council [did not] pass a pro-gay rights employment ordinance this spring?"

"Most businesses, NAU, Coconino Community Colleges, City Government, Flagstaff Public Schools, and the list goes on already have gay rights verbage and offer their own protection for gay employees which include harassment and discrimination. In fact, these employers offer domestic partner benefits. None of my gay family or friends are homeless in Flag, so I don't see a need to protect us from housing discrimination. NAU, Coconino Community Colleges, as well as the local high schools have gay student organzations. But, I guess some people just need to really make sure all the redundancies are covered. "

The LDS do dominate the City government and businesses in Flagstaff, as with many small Western US cities. There is nothing wrong with this, unless you're gay or Jewish and then you have a hard time getting a job. That's all I was saying, but for whatever reason you chose to misinterpret my motives. Personally, Flagstaff isn't for me, and I'm more comfortable in cities with lots of Jewish liberals.

Flagstaff does not have a gay chamber of commerce, does not have a gay bar or any other GLBT community organization. It's a very socially conservative city compared to places such as Seattle, Portland, Eugene, Boulder, San Francisco, etc.

On other measures of liberalism, Flag does not have its own City minimum wage (Santa Fe and Albuquerque do). Flag does not have a Church of Scientology. Flag also does not have a liberal talk station or even a low power community FM radio station.

I've heard of horrible gay bashing in Flagstaff so I wouldn't recommend it for GLBT persons.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

On other measures of liberalism, Flag does not have its own City minimum wage (Santa Fe and Albuquerque do). Flag does not have a Church of Scientology. Flag also does not have a liberal talk station or even a low power community FM radio station.

I've heard of horrible gay bashing in Flagstaff so I wouldn't recommend it for GLBT persons.

Yep - You have shown why Flagstaff is so very popular - thanks for the reminder(s)

BTW - many people do not believe in your Gay, Liberal agenda. Quite the opposite in fact.

[fcorrales80]

Um Tom, STOP, you are making yourself look more uninformed and ignorant. WHO do you think organize and throw the Pride in the Pine event in Flagstaff? Some gay phantom organization??? LOL LOL, wow. What an uninformed poster. And Flag politics are dominated by democratic, protestant officials. NOT mormon, conservative officials. Look up their profiles, they are readily available to the public.

The Flagstaff Gay Chamber of Commerce is a satellite office that is funded and run mostly through the Greater Phoenix Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce.

Northern Arizona Pride Association is a gay organization in Flagstaff.

The City of Flagstaff is an actual SPONSOR of Pride in the Pines and is active in its organization. They also allow employees to donate to gay causes including the pride event.

PFLAG of Flagstaff

There was an incident of gay bashing in Flagstaff after the pride event last year. A horrible incident.

The "conservative city of Flagstaff" acknowledged the terrible incident and "issued a proclamation, declaring that day Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Day in the city of Flagstaff calling "upon all city residents, employees and volunteers to participate in the spirit and activities of this day."
http://www.2015place.com/2008/06/ant...f-arizona.html

Yeah, that's an action that a conservative city would traditionally do following such a horrible incident! One of the attackers was a Flagstaff resident, another was from Colorado; Englewood, CO, and the other two from Sun City. They all face enhanced sentences under Arizona's hate laws and the Flagstaff prosecutor is not backing down from seeking the maximum. The city is sending a message; "not in this town!" They want everyone to feel safe and welcomed in Flagstaff.