How do you like Flagstaff? (Phoenix: foreclosed, rental, unemployment)

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by nowannamove

I wanted to add that though I like flag. I think there is far too much violence here, especially for such a small town. It is more violent than any place I have ever lived. Don't like that.

It's due to the unemployment, perhaps 10%+. The area with the lowest unemployment is NNW of downtown along hwy 180 (i.e. near Coconino estates). If you look at Boulder, where crime is very low, the unemployment is only about 4%. When people are losing their jobs or having their hours cut back, they turn to drugs and crime. Or, they turn to the forums of City-Data.com [ LOL ]
None of the media outlets in Flagstaff seem to vigorously challenge the current Flagstaff economic crisis and corruption on the City Council. They just passed impact fees for businesses.

[kdog]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

None of the media outlets in Flagstaff seem to vigorously challenge the current Flagstaff economic crisis and corruption on the City Council.

Maybe because it's all in your mind? Boulder has some of the most stringent anti-growth ordinances in the country, infinitely more so than Flagstaff. Do a little homework, will you? Maybe you could start by providing some factual information on the size of Boulder's impact fees as compared to Flagstaff. I think it would be a real eye opener for you.

And what's wrong with impact fees anyway? The reason for them is that new businesses create a burden on town including water, sewerage, police and fire services, increases traffic load, monitoring services (like safety and health), etc, etc, etc. Exactly WHO do you expect to pay for those things? The town residents? As a consumer, I think it's good that companies have to pay something up front to open shop in my neighborhood. That helps separate the fly-by-nights from legitimate business.

Your continued comparisons of Flagstaff to Boulder are ludicrous on so many levels. Boulder is 30 minutes from Denver and Denver International Airport. It's home to 12 or so government research agencies which employ thousands of scientists. University of Colorado at Boulder is one of the top research schools in the country. Even the weather is much better in Boulder, and access to skiing and other outdoor recreation puts puts Flagstaff to shame. You could PAY businesses to come to Flagstaff and it would never get 1/10th of the high-tech business that Boulder has, much less the entire Denver metro area which is probably only second to Silicon Valley for high-tech. Flagstaff has none of this and will always be a small isolated town with limited resources. The smartest thing they can do is to manage it as the quaint and unique high-desert town that it is, and not try to make it into something that it will never be.

[Tom Lane]

See replies below In Bold:
Boulder has some of the most stringent anti-growth ordinances in the country, infinitely more so than Flagstaff.
On these forums you seem to be a fiscal Democrat (?) and don't like my posts (as I am a fiscal Libertarian), but your opinions are thought provoking and I'll respond. You are correct that both Boulder and Flagstaff do have significant restrictions on businesses coming in.
And what's wrong with impact fees anyway? The reason for them is that new businesses create a burden on town including water, sewerage, police and fire services, increases traffic load, monitoring services (like safety and health), etc, etc, etc. Exactly WHO do you expect to pay for those things?
Ideally, the taxes from the new business and its revenue (sales tax) goes to the City treasury to pay for the services you mention. To prevent urban sprawal, the City should provide tax and other incentives ONLY for the very best businesses to come in, to ensure that they get companies who will pay the most in tax revenues. In Flagstaff, one example is green companies. Look at Mayor Martin J. Cha'vez has successfully recruited green businesses into Albuquerque with lots of new jobs.
*****Overall, Impact fees and taxes prevent - to a greater extent - businesses from relocating to small isolated towns like Flagstaff, than to larger towns like Boulder that are closer to large Metro areas like Denver for the reasons that you mention (i.e. proximity to transportation/airports/water for transporting materials). However, Flagstaff has an airport and I think it should expand to be a subsidary of the Phoenix airport, in order to relieve congestion on I-17 between Phoenix and Flagstaff, and also stimulate the struggling economy. There is plenty of national forest land between Mountainnaire and Lake Mary Road. (Most city-data readers will disagree. Please forgive me I am a big city transplant.)
Your continued comparisons of Flagstaff to Boulder are ludicrous on so many levels. Boulder is 30 minuMorgan Hagamantes from Denver and Denver International Airport. It's home to 12 or so government research agencies which employ thousands of scientists. University of Colorado at Boulder is one of the top research schools in the country. Even the weather is much better in Boulder, and access to skiing and other outdoor recreation puts puts Flagstaff to shame. You could PAY businesses to come to Flagstaff and it would never get 1/10th of the high-tech business that Boulder has
Why not reduce the impact fees on businesses to ZERO and see what happens? for Flag city council wanted to do this, and was voted down by the people. Now, the citizens are complaining of losing their jobs and having their hours cut back at the City just passed business impact fees. When I arrived in Flagstaff this spring, I read the candidate bios and from what little I knew about Flagstaff, it was clear that Hagaman was the best guy. The Ginsberg group of realtors (#1 in the area, Coldwell-Banker-Narico) also were for Hagaman. Personally, I think that realtors like Hagaman and Allen Ginsberg would - if on the City Council - provide better service for newcomers to the area.
Flagstaff has none of this and will always be a small isolated town with limited resources. The smartest thing they can do is to manage it as the quaint and unique high-desert town that it is, and not try to make it into something that it will never be.
I respectfuly disagree. In these days of a severe national recession, a town depending on its Victorian appeal, skiers, bicyclists, and university students can't survive. Unemployement is over 10% in Flagstaff, and we need industries to come in to provide more jobs (and tax revenue) for the city. The City Manager just sliced 20% out of the budget due to a lack of sales taxes (predominately). That's a disgrace. Compare Flagstaff to Boulder where about 20% work in "high-tech" jobs (ref: City-Data). These white collar jobs don't go away during a recession. During recessions, the purchasing power (aka discretionary of these employees doesn't go down in towns like Boulder and Seattle, because the rich, upper middle class workers still purchase new homes, autos, and manufactured products. Look at Flagstaff, where auto sales and construction both went down 20% year over year through July 2008. Workers in these fields are losing their jobs, and that's not fair. In Boulder, unemployment went down recently to about 4% (see the Boulder board for a discussion).

Major realtors here in Flagstaff who understand economics really wanted realtor Morgan Hagaman to get on the City Council.
Generally speaking, I think Realtors are the best candidates for City Council due to their experience and understanding of fiscal matters. That said, I am still a Liberal on health care, wanting universal health care. And I am pro-gay marriage. And I am for a national $14/hour miniimum wage. So one can't label me except I'm Libertarian on policies for economic growth.

[dboc2000]

Liberalism / progressivism in Flagstaff.

I'm moving to Flagstaff in a few months and I've heard quite a few people talk about liberalism in Flagstaff. I happen to be very conservative but I get along socially with all kinds of people-- a good time is a good time --I don't care about your politics. The only people I can't stand are the snobby liberals who bring up politics at dinner parties or tell you how stupid the rest of America is for voting for Bush... you know I honestly look down on those people. It seems dumb to bring up such a subject socially no matter what you think.

Getting to the point, are Flagstaff liberals cool or do they have a stick up their own a*ss about their politics?

[BillR1]

Originally Posted by dboc2000

Liberalism / progressivism in Flagstaff.

I'm moving to Flagstaff in a few months and I've heard quite a few people talk about liberalism in Flagstaff. I happen to be very conservative but I get along socially with all kinds of people-- a good time is a good time --I don't care about your politics. The only people I can't stand are the snobby liberals who bring up politics at dinner parties or tell you how stupid the rest of America is for voting for Bush... you know I honestly look down on those people. It seems dumb to bring up such a subject socially no matter what you think.

Getting to the point, are Flagstaff liberals cool or do they have a stick up their own a*ss about their politics?

Most of the ones I've met here are hard-core liberals! Bush is equivlent to the devil himself, in their opinions.
But come on ahead; we NEED more conservatives here, that's for sure!!

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by BillR1

Most of the ones I've met here are hard-core liberals! Bush is equivlent to the devil himself, in their opinions.
But come on ahead; we NEED more conservatives here, that's for sure!!

We need more Economic Libertarians here to vote ALL of the current City Council members out of office in 2010 (and also the current newly elected mayor), and replace them with new members who will lower taxes on new businesses, and provide incentives for IT and biotech businesses to come here, and raise the minimum wage to $12/hour, and fill the potholes and replace all the cracked sidewalks!

[parrie-dog]

yep, there are liberals here in flagstaff. But that is what you get for living in a city with a university that started out as a teachers school.

yes, the City Council needs to change it's way of thinking and stop DRIVING AWAY new companies that could bring us higher paying jobs.

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by betsyvee

Yes Flagstaff is a beautiful place to live. Whoever wrote about how Boulder is better is crazy. I lived in Boulder for 6 years. Whenever you would say hi to someone on the trails they would think you were crazy. It was a relatively unfriendly town to say the least.

Nobody says hello here in Flagstaff, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe.

In Albuquerque, Flagstaff, ans Santa Fe, nobody ever meets their neighbors.

The cliquishness is all quite a shock for those of us from the Coasts and Upper Midwest.

We do say hello in my native Seattle.

The reason (I think) for the "unwelcoming" nature of Arizona and New Mexico is that they were surveyed to rank very high in the Consciencious personality type, who tend to be cliquish. Whatever the cause of this (i.e. climate, elevation, political orientation) is debatable.

The United States of Mind - WSJ.com

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

Nobody says hello here in Flagstaff, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe.

In Albuquerque, Flagstaff, ans Santa Fe, nobody ever meets their neighbors.

The cliquishness is all quite a shock for those of us from the Coasts and Upper Midwest.

We do say hello in my native Seattle.

The reason (I think) for the "unwelcoming" nature of Arizona and New Mexico is that they were surveyed to rank very high in the Consciencious personality type, who tend to be cliquish. Whatever the cause of this (i.e. climate, elevation, political orientation) is debatable.

The United States of Mind - WSJ.com

You may be onto something there: despite my being from back east originally.............I tend to get along best with native SoCal folks who were born between 1935-65 now living here in Arizona. There is an openess (sp) about them that I noticed even as a teenager back in the Wash DC area 30+ years ago.

[BillR1]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

Nobody says hello here in Flagstaff, Albuquerque, and Santa Fe.

In Albuquerque, Flagstaff, ans Santa Fe, nobody ever meets their neighbors.

The cliquishness is all quite a shock for those of us from the Coasts and Upper Midwest.

We do say hello in my native Seattle.

The reason (I think) for the "unwelcoming" nature of Arizona and New Mexico is that they were surveyed to rank very high in the Consciencious personality type, who tend to be cliquish. Whatever the cause of this (i.e. climate, elevation, political orientation) is debatable.

The United States of Mind - WSJ.com

I've been to all 3 places, and I'd have to agree. This is NOT a friendly place at all, compared to other spots I've lived.