Some facts about scorpions/spiders/snakes in Arizona. (Phoenix, Tucson: backyard, health care)

[kdog]

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

DML, Steve-o -

I have to say that this is a VERY interesting discussion involving 2 folks who really seem to know their stuff - but still have slightly different points of view. REALLY appreciate your posts.

Ken

Ditto! Love Steve's photos. But I'm gonna have to defer to the doc for medical statistics as he's on the front lines here.

[Boatdrinks]

Originally Posted by kdog

Ditto! Love Steve's photos. But I'm gonna have to defer to the doc for medical statistics as he's on the front lines here.

Ditto It's nice to get some factual info from a real professional, conveyed in a non-ridiculing or fear-inducing manner Thanks doc!!!

Also, wanted to add that, in our 4 yrs here, we've not seen a single scorpian, icky spider or snake, and I'm knocking quite loudly on wood right now b/c yall will hear me screaming from a mile away if I walk into my backyard and see a snake lounging there on our patio. When we lived in VA, we saw snakes very frequently and I always find it funny that people think that snakes and various icky varmints are so bad here in AZ. Yes, we have them, but so do most other states.

Ok, going back to my knocking on wood now

[Steve-o]

DML1651, I can agree with most you said, thanks for sharing! The multiple sting issue could indeed cause more problems due to the size/weight of the victim and their reaction. The effects would be the same, but the injection of more neurotoxic venom from multiple stings would increase the amount in the blood stream and would probably act quicker and may be a bit more intense Id imagine. Its like cobra venom for instance (Ophiophagus hannah)... its venom is not nearly as dangerous as a Taipan's, but its the amount they inject that kills. Or a bee sting... a single bee sting to an allergic victim is bad, but several more stings could spell death quicker, am I correct? I understand the venom toxicity and properties vary between bees, scorpions and snakes, but I would be led to believe that several stings from a bark, as compared to one, would be considered worse.

As for patients with stings, Im sure most are from harmless species such as Vaejovis spinigerus, or Hadrurus spadix/arizonensis or Diplocentrus spp. Its the "oh no, Ive been stung by a scorpion" factor that comes into play. People see a scorpion and assume its deadly, no matter how harmless the species is. So many of your patients, who you observed as having little or no side effects, were probably stung by Vaejovids, another widely distributed genus in AZ.

Also, emedicine's site showed 2-3 people have died of bark scorpion stings, and Ive also seen reports where its in the dozens. I dont know which to believe, but Dr. Sean Bush is HIGHLY knowledgeable in this arena and he shows 2-3 deaths.

As for AV, Im positive that deaths would be in the hundreds had it not been for its invention. True our hospitals are normally far and above those found in Mexico, but the AV is there for a reason, and many need treatments every year to prevent death and/or lessen the venoms horrid effects.

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by kdog

Ditto! Love Steve's photos. But I'm gonna have to defer to the doc for medical statistics as he's on the front lines here.

99% of doctors dont know squat about scorpions. The OP does, which is nice, but youd be surprised how dumb many doctors are when it comes to scorpions and how to treat their stings. Case in point, my nephew in TX (4 yr old at the time) was stung by a Centruroides vittatus, a pretty decently potent scorpion. He was taken to Urgent Care to deferred him to the ER. When they got to the ER they presented the dead scorpion to the doctor who identified it as a "Arizona bark scorpion". Nevermind the fact that its not found in Texas nor is it even the same color. He got the genus right, but thats about it. My SIL sent me photos of the scorpion and it was indeed a C. vittatus. I was 1/2 tempted to call the doctor and give him some hard up facts before they go mis-identifying scorpions.

Here is a perfect example... this "medical" site is false in MANY areas, and this was written in collaberation with doctors? Yikes! First off, scorpions do NOT BITE. Secondly, And theyre not poisonous either. They dont have to "raise their tails" to sting, they can deliver side stings like you wouldnt believe, especially the Centruroides genus (AZ bark scorp) with their super slender metasomas (tails if you will). Thirdly, that scorpion in the pic is most likely a member of the Heterometrus or Pandinus genus, which are completely and utterly harmless. If they wanted to educate folks, they could have shown a genus thats responsible for thousands of deaths annually, such as Tityus, Androctonus, Parabuthus, Centruroides, Leiurus, etc.

[kdog]

Originally Posted by Steve-o

99% of doctors dont know squat about scorpions. The OP does, which is nice, but youd be surprised how dumb many doctors are when it comes to scorpions and how to treat their stings.

I have no doubt at all about that, Steve. I was indeed referring to was the OP, DML1651.

We've been in AZ for a year now, and I've yet to see a scorpion. We haven't seen any snakes either, although I'm thinking of going looking for them. We're close to Rattlesnake Wash, and I hear that's where they hang out (go figure).

Now what we do have is tarantulas. Never had them in the house, but there are a couple that we see on occasion in the backyard. Very cool and fun to observe.
Last night we were in the pool, and some kind of giant flies that looked almost exactly like hummingbirds were buzzing us. They may have been humming birds, but I couldn't see the narrow snouts. Plus, they were a bit smaller than hummers. But their movements were the same. They'd dip down and take sips from the water and split. They'd also buzz our heads curiously, and that was pretty freaky. I'd love to know what they were. Any thoughts?

[LordBalfor]

Kdog -

Not sure what species they were but we saw several very large moths (nearly 3 inch wingspan or so) moving about like hummingbirds in the evening, feeding from flowers while in flight. In was pretty cool.

Also saw a 6 inch tarantula lumbering across the pavement by the pool one night. I was in the pool at the time so I could see UNDER it's belly. Looked like a scene from one of those 1950's horror movies. Pretty interesting. When it noted all the attention it was getting, it turned acround and slowly moved back into the bushes.

Ken

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by kdog

I have no doubt at all about that, Steve. I was indeed referring to was the OP, DML1651.

We've been in AZ for a year now, and I've yet to see a scorpion. We haven't seen any snakes either, although I'm thinking of going looking for them. We're close to Rattlesnake Wash, and I hear that's where they hang out (go figure).

Now what we do have is tarantulas. Never had them in the house, but there are a couple that we see on occasion in the backyard. Very cool and fun to observe.
Last night we were in the pool, and some kind of giant flies that looked almost exactly like hummingbirds were buzzing us. They may have been humming birds, but I couldn't see the narrow snouts. Plus, they were a bit smaller than hummers. But their movements were the same. They'd dip down and take sips from the water and split. They'd also buzz our heads curiously, and that was pretty freaky. I'd love to know what they were. Any thoughts?

Sounds like hummingbirds to me. They dive down on us and take sips from the pool when Im there, too. If they were any kind of insect, the only think I can think of that would be remotely close would be a "hummingbird hawk moth". They get their name because its a moth that hovers like a hummingbird. Theyll pause to take sips of nectar from flowers just as a hummingbird does, really neat little creatures.

Here is a pic I snapped in June of a hummingbird taking a sip from my MIL's sculpture thingy out front. And we did find a tarantula in her yard too, which is also below. Sorry, had to sneak in a tarantula photo.





Oh yeah, one more pic, sorry! CHECK OUT THIS HUGE SCORP IN SCOTTSDALE!!

[LordBalfor]

Sounds like what we saw was indeed a Hummingbird Moth (looked it up and the photo looks right).


Thanks Steve.

Ken

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

Sounds like what we saw was indeed a Hummingbird Moth (looked it up and the photo looks right).


Thanks Steve.

Ken

Glad to help. Cool little suckers arent they? I actually had one land on me for a few seconds last weekend. I have the hardest time photographing those dang things because they dont sit still for more than a second at a time, so imagine my surprise when one landed on me! Too bad I didnt have my camera at the time.

[Gretchen B]

So . . . back to scorpions. First question for Steve-O. We do have a few up here in Prescott. Most folks will never see one, but I've actually seen 1/2 dozen or so. The kind I see are quite pale, kind of a light tan or cream color. They're not very big - about 2" long. Would these be the bark scorpion or something else?

And now a quick question for DML1651 , if I'm allergic to spider bites (at least I think that's what I'm reacting to - bite spreads out to about golf ball size with redness and swelling), would I be at greater risk if I get stung by a scorpion or bit by a black widow? (I'm not going to worry about tarantulas since I hardly ever see those.) Is scorpion venom similar to a spider bite?