should I move family to UK (Tempe, Young: wedding, live, fence)

[CelesteGB]

Cyanna,

I must thank you, and tell you that all of your posts have been of great assistance. I am a U.S. citizen born and raised, currently living in California. Seven years ago I married my British husband, and we now have 2 children ages 5 and 2. My husband left the UK 12 years ago for California(too many episodes of Baywatch and Chips as a kid) and has only been back for vacations. We don't even do much of those anymore as his parents have retired to Spain, and his sister married a Welshman who is in the Army and they live in Cypress.

We started discussing a couple of months ago relocating back to the UK. Our only real link to the UK currently, is my husbands best friend. He is married with 3 kids and has lived in the same area all of his life. He has very positive things to say about it, but I do believe that he is anxious to have his best friend back, and also if you do not know or have not lived anything different, changes may not be as noticed. I have started doing all of the research and as I get farther and farther along it becomes more discouraging. The schools, the attitudes, the values, crime and safety, and the overall quality of life are not what they used to be, not to mention that our finances would be cut in half. I almost wish I hadn't started this you should see my husband, he is brokenhearted with what his country has become, and almost feels like there is no home to go back to.

You have taken some flack for some of your postings, but I truly thank you for being so brutally honest. I do realize that some of this is your opinion, but it is also fact. Some of my research has come from links that you have suggested. I of course will continue to fully research this possible relocation.(gotta finish what you started) I still plan to go over again myself and look at some housing, schools, and other aspects, but I truly believe that short of a miracle happening, we will be staying in the U.S. There are just to many people everywhere who agree with many of the things that you have stated. I have also read many positive things that people have to say about the UK, but sometimes the bad just outweighs the good.

I am NOW dedicating as much research towards safety, crime, and the fact that we would need to add Bupar, if that would even help,(Can't make someone be hygenic no matter what you pay) as I am to housing, schools, and employment. We have sent your first posting to as many Brits as we know to get their opinions, and the replys are all coming back in agreement. I truly thank you, as you have opened our eyes to investigate aspects we might not other wise have thought of.

I guess sometimes the grass is not always greener on the other side or in this case shall we say the pond.

[Brizzy]

I moved to Phoenix from Australia (my husband is American) and I can tell you Britts are getting out of the UK and moving to Australia in droves! The main reason seems to be the better weather and laid back lifestyle there.
I knew an English couple in Australia who were so homesick they packed up and went back - they lasted 6 months before they moved back to Australia. Sometimes when you move to a new country you tend to look at your old one with Rose colored glasses. There must be good reasons you have stayed here so long!

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by Brizzy

I moved to Phoenix from Australia (my husband is American) and I can tell you Britts are getting out of the UK and moving to Australia in droves! The main reason seems to be the better weather and laid back lifestyle there.
I knew an English couple in Australia who were so homesick they packed up and went back - they lasted 6 months before they moved back to Australia. Sometimes when you move to a new country you tend to look at your old one with Rose colored glasses. There must be good reasons you have stayed here so long!

Going from one hotter than hell place to another that both start and end with the letters 'A', I see

[Cyanna]

Originally Posted by CelesteGB

Cyanna,

I must thank you, and tell you that all of your posts have been of great assistance. I am a U.S. citizen born and raised, currently living in California. Seven years ago I married my British husband, and we now have 2 children ages 5 and 2. My husband left the UK 12 years ago for California(too many episodes of Baywatch and Chips as a kid) and has only been back for vacations. We don't even do much of those anymore as his parents have retired to Spain, and his sister married a Welshman who is in the Army and they live in Cypress.

We started discussing a couple of months ago relocating back to the UK. Our only real link to the UK currently, is my husbands best friend. He is married with 3 kids and has lived in the same area all of his life. He has very positive things to say about it, but I do believe that he is anxious to have his best friend back, and also if you do not know or have not lived anything different, changes may not be as noticed. I have started doing all of the research and as I get farther and farther along it becomes more discouraging. The schools, the attitudes, the values, crime and safety, and the overall quality of life are not what they used to be, not to mention that our finances would be cut in half. I almost wish I hadn't started this you should see my husband, he is brokenhearted with what his country has become, and almost feels like there is no home to go back to.

You have taken some flack for some of your postings, but I truly thank you for being so brutally honest. I do realize that some of this is your opinion, but it is also fact. Some of my research has come from links that you have suggested. I of course will continue to fully research this possible relocation.(gotta finish what you started) I still plan to go over again myself and look at some housing, schools, and other aspects, but I truly believe that short of a miracle happening, we will be staying in the U.S. There are just to many people everywhere who agree with many of the things that you have stated. I have also read many positive things that people have to say about the UK, but sometimes the bad just outweighs the good.

I am NOW dedicating as much research towards safety, crime, and the fact that we would need to add Bupar, if that would even help,(Can't make someone be hygenic no matter what you pay) as I am to housing, schools, and employment. We have sent your first posting to as many Brits as we know to get their opinions, and the replys are all coming back in agreement. I truly thank you, as you have opened our eyes to investigate aspects we might not other wise have thought of.

I guess sometimes the grass is not always greener on the other side or in this case shall we say the pond.

Glad I could be of some help, Celeste. I would rather be brutally honest than to sugar coat things, which wouldn't help anyone. As for Bupa, I don't know if that would make much difference. Abouth the only thing it ensures is that you will get in for doctor's appointments and surgery quicker. It will have no bearing on the cleanliness of the hospital you are admitted to. We were just at the hospital yesterday. My husband had to go to the Melanoma Clinic Ward to have some stitches removed. The hospital is very large and sprawling and is from the Victorian era. As we walked from the entrance and then through all the corridors I looked for the bottles of disinfectant hand wash that everyone is supposed to use upon entering and leaving the hospital. NONE were in evidence. We finally got to the ward the wanted and I spotted a disinfectant dispenser on the wall. Wouldn't you know it...the damn thing was EMPTY! My husband knocked on the Head Nursing Sister's office door and asked her why it was empty. "Oh, I'm sorry! I meant to re-fill that HOURS ago but I couldn't figure out how to open it and then I forgot all about it!" These dispensers are not supposed to be empty, EVER, and EVERYONE going in and out of that ward should be using it, from doctors and nurses to orderlies and patients. Anyway, on her way to locate a bottle of disinfectant she stopped to tell off a few nurses for not making sure it was re-filled. Ten minutes later she finally appeared with a bottle. However, NOBODY else, other than my husband and myself, bothered to use it, even though a very large sign instructs everyone to clean their hands with it. Made it worse that when we arrived there were at least 50 people waiting to be seen and at leasts another 20 showed up after us. No seats for half the people so we were all standing. My husband needs to use a walking stick and nobody offered him a seat. We were lucky because we had a set appointment, but most of those people would have been "walk-ins" and last minute referrals, who would be looking at a two hour hour wait, and if they weren't ale to be seen by closing time they would have to come back a week later to wait and hope they got in. This clinic ward is only open on Thursdays from 1:30 to 3:30. That wasn't the end of it. My husband and I were called back to a room with 6 cubicles seperated by curtains which were held together with plastic tape. As the nurse was preparing the surgical instruments for the patient in the cubicle next to ours she dropped the long tweezers on the floor, picked them up, and put them BACK ON THE TABLE, right next to the "clean" instruments, and she used this on the patient! I went ballistic! I made it very, very clear that I wanted the instruments to be used on my husband to be from a sealed pack, to be opened in front of us and I insisted that the nurse wash her hands and wear gloves. I was so mad she complied without a complaint!

[twiggy]

Originally Posted by Cyanna

Glad I could be of some help, Celeste. I would rather be brutally honest than to sugar coat things, which wouldn't help anyone. As for Bupa, I don't know if that would make much difference. Abouth the only thing it ensures is that you will get in for doctor's appointments and surgery quicker. It will have no bearing on the cleanliness of the hospital you are admitted to. We were just at the hospital yesterday. My husband had to go to the Melanoma Clinic Ward to have some stitches removed. The hospital is very large and sprawling and is from the Victorian era. As we walked from the entrance and then through all the corridors I looked for the bottles of disinfectant hand wash that everyone is supposed to use upon entering and leaving the hospital. NONE were in evidence. We finally got to the ward the wanted and I spotted a disinfectant dispenser on the wall. Wouldn't you know it...the damn thing was EMPTY! My husband knocked on the Head Nursing Sister's office door and asked her why it was empty. "Oh, I'm sorry! I meant to re-fill that HOURS ago but I couldn't figure out how to open it and then I forgot all about it!" These dispensers are not supposed to be empty, EVER, and EVERYONE going in and out of that ward should be using it, from doctors and nurses to orderlies and patients. Anyway, on her way to locate a bottle of disinfectant she stopped to tell off a few nurses for not making sure it was re-filled. Ten minutes later she finally appeared with a bottle. However, NOBODY else, other than my husband and myself, bothered to use it, even though a very large sign instructs everyone to clean their hands with it. Made it worse that when we arrived there were at least 50 people waiting to be seen and at leasts another 20 showed up after us. No seats for half the people so we were all standing. My husband needs to use a walking stick and nobody offered him a seat. We were lucky because we had a set appointment, but most of those people would have been "walk-ins" and last minute referrals, who would be looking at a two hour hour wait, and if they weren't ale to be seen by closing time they would have to come back a week later to wait and hope they got in. This clinic ward is only open on Thursdays from 1:30 to 3:30. That wasn't the end of it. My husband and I were called back to a room with 6 cubicles seperated by curtains which were held together with plastic tape. As the nurse was preparing the surgical instruments for the patient in the cubicle next to ours she dropped the long tweezers on the floor, picked them up, and put them BACK ON THE TABLE, right next to the "clean" instruments, and she used this on the patient! I went ballistic! I made it very, very clear that I wanted the instruments to be used on my husband to be from a sealed pack, to be opened in front of us and I insisted that the nurse wash her hands and wear gloves. I was so mad she complied without a complaint!

Don't mean to be a downer, or a panic'er, but this happens here too. I see it all the time. Especially at the clinics, were you also wait for hours and hope to be seen. A lot of times your waiting with illegals who haven't had their vaccines and have diseases like mumps and measles. Our hospitals actually kill more people a year with medical mistakes than in England. The building might look newer but that isn't a great indicator of the people inside. Plus if you don't have insurance you don't get treated! No one gives you a free cancer treatment believe me. Getting seen after waiting along time is better than not ever being seen. Especially when it comes to a serious illness. And insurance is very expensive. I pay 1300.00 a month
with 3 children and we have a 500.00 deductible every year and a co-pay. If you miss a payment, that's it! No more, unless you pay threw the roof. And just forget it if you have a serious condition before you get the insurance. They won't give it to you. I don't know, if you were faced with no treatment you might appreciate a little dirtier treatment. I would just want someone to do something, at sometime. I let a lot of things go on myself because I can't afford to have it done, so my kids can get their care. And forget dental insurance, it doesn't really even exist. My daughter needed a root canal and it cost me 1500.00 out of my pocket, even with the insurance. I know I need one, but can't afford it. So, be careful what your not thankful for. Our medical system might just disappoint you. Americans use mostly credit cards to pay the extra medical cost. They even have a credit card specifically for this. Way to make a buck! Good ol' U.S OF A.

[Cyanna]

Twiggy, I've never known of anyone in the United States to get turned away from the hospital due to lack of insurance. I do believe it is now illegal for a hospital to do so. Of course, you may have had different experiences, so I won't say that it HASN'T happened to you or someone you know. Just curious as to why your insurance is so high? Are you paying for it yourself or does an employer subsidize it? I guess I'm fortunate that my brother works for a large health insurance company, which will allow me to insure my entire family for $350 a month with a $1000 deductable in total for all of us.

I had 38 years of experience with American medical care and insurance costs and to me it is still preferable to the "care" I am receiving in the UK for "free." Bad health care is oftentimes worse than no care at all since it can make things even worse, not to mention the emotional and mental trauma it can, and does, cause.

At least i the United States immunizations are required for children. Most parents in the UK will not get their children immunized with the MMR vaccine because some idiot has claimed that it causes death and retardation. As a result measles, mumps and Rubella are on the rise after they had been nearly eradicated. On top of that we have outbreaks of TB, Hepatitis and horrific flu bugs due to all the illegal immigrants we have coming in from the Middle East, Africa and Eastern Europe.

There are a number of medical universities in Arizona offering free cancer treatment, as well as at other medical unis throughout the United States.

[Brizzy]

Originally Posted by ArizonaBear

Going from one hotter than hell place to another that both start and end with the letters 'A', I see

Spot on! Wouldn't live in the cold for quids!

[Cyanna]

A few more things to consider about life in the UK...

1.) Most of the hospitals in the UK have sold their parking lots to private companies, which means that going to hospital, or visiting someone, can be quite costly. Hospital parking is not free. The cost can range anywhere from the equivalent of $2.00 to $4.00 per hour. I know one woman who spent over $160 in parking fees over a period of two days. Her husband was dying and she did not want to leave the hospital. She just wanted a few more days with him. Of course, you have the option of taking a taxi to and from the hosptial, which also becomes quite expensive, or take a bus, which means you could be facing a long walk from the bus stop to the hospital in cold, wind, rain or snow or all of the above. If you are seeking help at the hospital riding the bus would not be very comfortable. If you have enough gasoline in your tank, but no money for parking, we'll, you are out of luck, because it probably means you also could not afford a taxi or the bus.

2.) Gasoline (petrol) is far more expensive in the UK. The cost of a gallon of gasoline in the United States is the same amount that is charged per litre in the UK. Basically almost 4 times as much as you pay in the States. If a gallon costs $3.50 in the States it will cost almost $14.00 in the UK.

3.) Free parking anywhere in the UK is very rare and also very limited. You have to pay to park almost anywhere. ASDA, which is owned by Walmart, and Tesco, are two of the rare exceptions.

4.) Many of the bigger cities in the UK are now charging what is called a "congestion charge." This means that if you wish to park within the city limits you must pay a fee, which can be anywhere from the equivalent of $16 to $20 a day. Once you have purchased your congestion charge ticket you will still have to pay the usual parking fees. Those who work in the city and wish to be able to park their car close to work pay an average of $32 to $50 a DAY! Those who live within the city limits must pay for a monthly permit in order to park near their home. London and Durham are just two examples of cities which charge this fee.

5.) Hospitals in the UK generally do not provide you with the use of a wheelchair or crutches while in the hospital. Most require that you rent these items from the Red Cross or some other company that rents out medical items.

6.) In British hospitals you are not provided with a snack or something to drink when you require it. You must have cash with you so that you can go into the public areas to purchase cola, coffee, tea or snacks from a vending machine. The most you can expect are three rather poor meals a day.

7.) If you wish to watch the television, listen to the radio or use the phone most hospitals now require that you purchase a special card that you can put credits on from your bank account. This card is used to pay for use of the television, radio and telephone. If you have no money you don't get any of these services.

8.) On the subject of televisions, in the UK it is illegal to watch your television unless you have paid for a TV License, which must be paid every year. If you do not pay for a license and watch your television you WILL be fined the equivalent of $2000.

9.) Even using a shopping cart at the grocery store is going to cost you. You cannot use a shopping cart (trolley) unless you put a £1 coin into a mechanism attached to the handle of the cart. Fortunately you will get your coin back when you return the cart.

10.) Most grocery stores charge you anywhere from 2 cents to 50 cents per shopping bag used to bag your groceries. They also do not have bag boys/bag girls. You bag your own groceries.

11.) Do not expect to come to the UK and just go to the local DMV to get a new license. You might first have to pay for driving lessons, which cost anywhere from $1000 to $2000. Driver's Education is not taught in the schools here either, so you will have to pay for your teenagers to also take these driving lessons, which will soon become mandatory. Auto insurance in the UK is over twice the amount that you pay in the United States.

12.) Houses in the UK are very small compared to American houses, so it might be best to leave your furniture behind if you plan to move here. The typical family house will have three bedrooms upstairs. Two of those bedrooms, including the master bedroom, will be about medium sized compared to an American bedroom, but the thrid is generally what is known as a "box room." It is called this because of how tiny and cramped it is. You are lucky if you can fit a single bed and one dresser in the room. Also, most UK houses do not have built in closets so you will have to purchase wardrobes to hang your clothes in. UK houses are very closed in, nothing like the more open floor plans that Americans are used to. Almost every room in the house will have a door because the only way to keep the house warm is to close the doors throughout the house.

13.) In the UK you will find that most women still hang their laundry out to dry, even in the cold, rain and snow. The other method is using a drying rack inside the house. This is because it costs too much to use a clothes dryer. Electricity cost two to three times as much in the UK as it does in the United States, and there is no such thing as "peak time" and "off time" rates. Drive through just about any neighborhood in the UK after dark and you'll notice that most houses are dark except for maybe one light on.

14.) If you end up renting from a local council be prepared to do a LOT of redecorating and painting. Unlike in the United States where a house or apartment must have clean carpets and fresh paint, etc.. it is very different in the UK. You will most likely find floors bare of carpet or tile and if the previous tenant was not happy about having to move out it is very likely you'll find that the wallpaper has either been torn off the walls or the walls have been painted with rude words or smeared with excrement. It is YOUR job to clean this up, NOT the landlord's. Trust me when I say that I am not exaggerating.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by Cyanna

A few more things to consider about life in the UK...

1.) Most of the hospitals in the UK have sold their parking lots to private companies, which means that going to hospital, or visiting someone, can be quite costly. Hospital parking is not free. The cost can range anywhere from the equivalent of $2.00 to $4.00 per hour. I know one woman who spent over $160 in parking fees over a period of two days. Her husband was dying and she did not want to leave the hospital. She just wanted a few more days with him. Of course, you have the option of taking a taxi to and from the hosptial, which also becomes quite expensive, or take a bus, which means you could be facing a long walk from the bus stop to the hospital in cold, wind, rain or snow or all of the above. If you are seeking help at the hospital riding the bus would not be very comfortable. If you have enough gasoline in your tank, but no money for parking, we'll, you are out of luck, because it probably means you also could not afford a taxi or the bus.

2.) Gasoline (petrol) is far more expensive in the UK. The cost of a gallon of gasoline in the United States is the same amount that is charged per litre in the UK. Basically almost 4 times as much as you pay in the States. If a gallon costs $3.50 in the States it will cost almost $14.00 in the UK.

3.) Free parking anywhere in the UK is very rare and also very limited. You have to pay to park almost anywhere. ASDA, which is owned by Walmart, and Tesco, are two of the rare exceptions.

4.) Many of the bigger cities in the UK are now charging what is called a "congestion charge." This means that if you wish to park within the city limits you must pay a fee, which can be anywhere from the equivalent of $16 to $20 a day. Once you have purchased your congestion charge ticket you will still have to pay the usual parking fees. Those who work in the city and wish to be able to park their car close to work pay an average of $32 to $50 a DAY! Those who live within the city limits must pay for a monthly permit in order to park near their home. London and Durham are just two examples of cities which charge this fee.

5.) Hospitals in the UK generally do not provide you with the use of a wheelchair or crutches while in the hospital. Most require that you rent these items from the Red Cross or some other company that rents out medical items.

6.) In British hospitals you are not provided with a snack or something to drink when you require it. You must have cash with you so that you can go into the public areas to purchase cola, coffee, tea or snacks from a vending machine. The most you can expect are three rather poor meals a day.

7.) If you wish to watch the television, listen to the radio or use the phone most hospitals now require that you purchase a special card that you can put credits on from your bank account. This card is used to pay for use of the television, radio and telephone. If you have no money you don't get any of these services.

8.) On the subject of televisions, in the UK it is illegal to watch your television unless you have paid for a TV License, which must be paid every year. If you do not pay for a license and watch your television you WILL be fined the equivalent of $2000.

9.) Even using a shopping cart at the grocery store is going to cost you. You cannot use a shopping cart (trolley) unless you put a £1 coin into a mechanism attached to the handle of the cart. Fortunately you will get your coin back when you return the cart.

10.) Most grocery stores charge you anywhere from 2 cents to 50 cents per shopping bag used to bag your groceries. They also do not have bag boys/bag girls. You bag your own groceries.

11.) Do not expect to come to the UK and just go to the local DMV to get a new license. You might first have to pay for driving lessons, which cost anywhere from $1000 to $2000. Driver's Education is not taught in the schools here either, so you will have to pay for your teenagers to also take these driving lessons, which will soon become mandatory. Auto insurance in the UK is over twice the amount that you pay in the United States.

12.) Houses in the UK are very small compared to American houses, so it might be best to leave your furniture behind if you plan to move here. The typical family house will have three bedrooms upstairs. Two of those bedrooms, including the master bedroom, will be about medium sized compared to an American bedroom, but the thrid is generally what is known as a "box room." It is called this because of how tiny and cramped it is. You are lucky if you can fit a single bed and one dresser in the room. Also, most UK houses do not have built in closets so you will have to purchase wardrobes to hang your clothes in. UK houses are very closed in, nothing like the more open floor plans that Americans are used to. Almost every room in the house will have a door because the only way to keep the house warm is to close the doors throughout the house.

13.) In the UK you will find that most women still hang their laundry out to dry, even in the cold, rain and snow. The other method is using a drying rack inside the house. This is because it costs too much to use a clothes dryer. Electricity cost two to three times as much in the UK as it does in the United States, and there is no such thing as "peak time" and "off time" rates. Drive through just about any neighborhood in the UK after dark and you'll notice that most houses are dark except for maybe one light on.

14.) If you end up renting from a local council be prepared to do a LOT of redecorating and painting. Unlike in the United States where a house or apartment must have clean carpets and fresh paint, etc.. it is very different in the UK. You will most likely find floors bare of carpet or tile and if the previous tenant was not happy about having to move out it is very likely you'll find that the wallpaper has either been torn off the walls or the walls have been painted with rude words or smeared with excrement. It is YOUR job to clean this up, NOT the landlord's. Trust me when I say that I am not exaggerating.

Sounds rather third world to me

[Livinginabox]

Originally Posted by Cyanna

Twiggy, I've never known of anyone in the United States to get turned away from the hospital due to lack of insurance. I do believe it is now illegal for a hospital to do so. Of course, you may have had different experiences, so I won't say that it HASN'T happened to you or someone you know. Just curious as to why your insurance is so high? Are you paying for it yourself or does an employer subsidize it? I guess I'm fortunate that my brother works for a large health insurance company, which will allow me to insure my entire family for $350 a month with a $1000 deductable in total for all of us.

I had 38 years of experience with American medical care and insurance costs and to me it is still preferable to the "care" I am receiving in the UK for "free." Bad health care is oftentimes worse than no care at all since it can make things even worse, not to mention the emotional and mental trauma it can, and does, cause.

At least i the United States immunizations are required for children. Most parents in the UK will not get their children immunized with the MMR vaccine because some idiot has claimed that it causes death and retardation. As a result measles, mumps and Rubella are on the rise after they had been nearly eradicated. On top of that we have outbreaks of TB, Hepatitis and horrific flu bugs due to all the illegal immigrants we have coming in from the Middle East, Africa and Eastern Europe.

There are a number of medical universities in Arizona offering free cancer treatment, as well as at other medical unis throughout the United States.

See, this is the common misconception though...healthcare in the UK is not free. In fact, you pay up the a$$ in taxes for it and much of that money gets lost in the tangled web of overly-socialist bureaucracy. The US system is broken too, but in a different way. In the US, the problem isn't that there is no NHS...it's that greed has 'taken over' so to speak of, mostly due to insurance companies and their policies which are more to do with profit than healthcare. I'd say that the NHS is probably doomed anyway....it's like a dying old elephant, desperately in need of being put out of its misery. The UK could learn a lot from countries such as Germany, or Australia. I, for one advocate a system of privately funded healthcare, where the government only steps in to enforce tough regulations to ensure that healthcare is affordable for all and that no one is denied treatment based on pre-existing conditions.