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Old 06-27-2012, 07:58 PM
 
Location: prescott az
6,954 posts, read 11,992,883 times
Reputation: 14218

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheyDee View Post
I never had kids in AZ schools, so I have a few questions. Do teachers teach 12 months/year here or do they have 2 months of "summer" off? Are they off for intercession or spring break and also for extra time at holidays, (meaning instead of being off Thanksgiving and the next day, are they off the entire holiday week or more? How about around Christmas/NewYear's?) Are all teachers minimally prepared with Master's degrees or are some teaching with Bachelor's? Are teacher's raises merit based or are they automatic, based upon time worked? Can they "give themselves a raise" by taking additional college/continuing education credits?

I would need answers to these questions before I could consider whether or not $30k/year might be a reasonable salary.

I also have questions about the administrative structure of the schools here. Many decades ago when I went to school, each school had a Principal and an Assistant Principal. I remember someone telling me (in another state) that their schools now had a Principal, several Vice Principals, etc. Are we top heavy like that too? I would think with just a Principal and Assistant Principal, more funding goes towards the schools themselves, rather than to salaries of Vice Principals to the Vice Principal and their extra administrative staff, etc.
Many AZ school districts run all year with 3or 4 weeks off for summer, and then they start up again. In Chandler, kids will start school again in July. They will have more breaks during the year, like Christmas, and around Easter. The kids do NOT have all summer off and neither do the teachers. Year round school has worked well here, since summer is way too hot to have 3 months off.

I think most teachers do an exceptional job with what they have to work with. Some of the schools are lower income and many have parents with only Spanish as primary language. Its not an easy job.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:35 PM
 
Location: the AZ desert
5,035 posts, read 9,182,552 times
Reputation: 8289
Quote:
Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
Most schools that I know of run on a 10 month schedule. Many teachers work the other two months to get by.

Most holidays are off.

Teachers are required to have a bachelor's degree at a minimum. State schools require certification as well. (TUSD)

Raises depend...

The fact of the matter is that how can you expect $30K to entice great teacher to teach in AZ when they can make more than twice that elsewhere. That is the question. So many people want to run schools like a business and I have no problem with that in many regards but fact of the matter is that if you pay low you will not get talent.

From your questions, I gather that you have not been a teacher and do not have depth of understanding in the complex issues at hand.And really why should you, not knocking you, but please, please, I am so tired of people spewing out "well I feel this way or that way" no matter what the experts say. Fine, go have heart surgery by a non specialist... Also, let me know if I am wrong, but you seem to have a disdain for teachers.

To note: I firmly believe that education needs a serious overhaul. That does not mean we pay teachers less. I think that certification is pretty much useless and that content knowledge plus people skills (which are hard to learn in a class) make a great teach, if I am simplifying things greatly. Get rid of bloated administration.
No, I am not a teacher in the context we're discussing here, or else I wouldn't have asked the questions I did. And no, I do not have a distain for teachers. I think many of them are very dedicated, work hard and do an excellent job within the confines they have to work with. There are some bad apples in the bunch, but you find some in every profession. This thread is about how much we're spending on education and I'm trying to put together the facts.

If most teachers run on a 10 month school schedule, they are being paid for that amount of time. To compare a salary on an annual basis then, we would have to say the $30k per year you mentioned is the equivalent of $36k per year.

I don't know if $36k/year equivalent starting salary for an entry level position requiring a Bachelor's is a very low salary for AZ.

I certainly wouldn't compare a teacher to a cardiac surgeon. Maybe a better comparison might be a nurse? Nurses also get paid a lot more in some other states. This site references the starting salaries of teachers in AZ and on this site a few nurses have posted their starting salaries in AZ. While it does seem that beginning nurses are making a little more than new teachers, nurses also tend to work 50% of holidays, whether they wish to or not, and new nurses have the least seniority for vacation scheduling, so they are eligible to take vacation only when nobody else wants to. Unlike new teachers, new nurses tend not to be off for any blocks of time around any holiday, including most 3 or 4 day holiday weekends, even if they are fortunate to have the particular holiday (day) itself off. Many places where nurses work do not even recognize as holidays some of which many teachers get off. Additionally, many entry level nurses are relegated to working overnight shifts; some full timers must also work on-call shifts, where they must be available to come into work within a short time frame, but if they are not called in they do not get paid. Teachers do not work overnights and, to my knowledge, full timers do not have to be on-call/available during their time off.

In other words, starting salaries between nurses and teachers aren't all that much different, while teachers tend to work mostly banker's hours and have all holidays off and very few starting nurses do.

Across-the-board, Arizona generally has low wages. Teachers are not an exception to this. However, on the flip side, the cost of living in Arizona is generally much less than many other places in the country. For example, according to this site, the average salary of teachers on Long Island, NY, as of June 28, 2012 (today), is $48k/year. That is a difference of $18k/year compared with the $30k starting salary in AZ, however, that $48k is not the average of new teachers, it is the average of all teachers. The average salary of a teacher in AZ is $45k - so that is a comparable salary. [Also worth noting, (the last I heard, although this may have changed), is teachers on Long Island may only teach for a short period of time with a Bachelor's. If they do not complete their Master's within the specified time frame, they may not continue to teach.] The median property taxes on Long Island are over $8k/year, while on the high end property taxes can be over $20k/year. That is not at all comparable to AZ. Houses themselves on Long Island are outrageously expensive, especially compared to AZ prices. (You can buy a house in the $100-$150k range in AZ; one would be hard-pressed to find one for double that amount on Long Island, particularly in a comparable neighborhood.) Gasoline averages $ .35/gal more there than here, etc.

I'm not going to summarize this, so as not to spew my opinion.

ETA: There is an ad for teachers in the current Explorer News. (There is a print copy and an online edition. The ad is on pg. 6.) Starting pay $44k; Master's + 5 years $50k.

Last edited by CheyDee; 06-28-2012 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:08 PM
 
3,391 posts, read 7,132,886 times
Reputation: 3831
Quote:
Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
From your questions, I gather that you have not been a teacher and do not have depth of understanding in the complex issues at hand.And really why should you, not knocking you, but please, please, I am so tired of people spewing out "well I feel this way or that way" no matter what the experts say. Fine, go have heart surgery by a non specialist...
People don't have to be teachers or have a particular "depth of understanding" to have valid opinions. That is true for everything under the sun, as well. And that's the point of posting on a public forum. If you prefer to discuss education issues with professionals, then City-Data is not the right forum for you.
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:41 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,646,638 times
Reputation: 20027
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhxBarb View Post
We were 48th when I got here, 11 years ago. We are still 48th today in what we spend per student in this state. With all the population explosion in AZ, wouldn't you think we could scrape up the money from these people moving here, to give kids a decent education? What does it take? For such a big state with so many residents, I think its a disgrace. JMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Searcher521 View Post
How much is spent says nothing about the quality of an education. I believe too much in fact is being spent on trying to fuel a failed system. Something drastic needs to happen and yes a lot of children need to be left behind, not everyone should be college bound. The quality of instruction should not be reduced to the lowest common denominator and ESL students should not be indulged.

All these people coming to this state are coming for a reason. Not a few of them are escaping places where people have a large appetite for government services and do not mind the tax burden while it falls most heavily on others.
i agree with searcher. throwing money at a problem does not solve the problem, especially when it comes to education. if we are ever going to fix the education system in arizona, let alone the rest of the country, we need to stop with the social engineering that the federal government and the NEA wants done, and get back to real teaching of real subjects.

we need to stop parents from suing the school system because their kids didnt pass the third grade, and then suing the school system later on because their kid cant read or write, because the parents sued to get their kids past the third grade.

it is sad to see the statistic that 25% of graduating high school seniors think that july 4, 1776 is when the japanese bombed pearl harbor. my niece told me that she was taught world history not american history, in high school, and that needs to stop.
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:37 PM
 
Location: outer space
484 posts, read 966,869 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimballette View Post
People don't have to be teachers or have a particular "depth of understanding" to have valid opinions. That is true for everything under the sun, as well. And that's the point of posting on a public forum. If you prefer to discuss education issues with professionals, then City-Data is not the right forum for you.

You are missing my point. For example: we have people recommending that creationism be taught in a high school biology class. These people are generally not biologists. [ Sad to read a poll that found 38% of U.S. citizens think that evolution is valid.]

We have people that prefer politicians that have no college degree and think that there is more oil in the US than... etc.

It seems like I struck a nerve with you and I am not sure why. It is my opinion that problems are best fixed by those in the field.

I did not mean the post to come off as a personal attack and if it did I apologize to the poster.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:40 AM
 
8,652 posts, read 17,188,089 times
Reputation: 4622
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhxBarb View Post
A guy was at the gas station getting signatures to put the tax on the ballot as permanent. When I said "no" to signing, and I did so because I am retired and need every penny I get, he gave me the guilt trip and said " Don't you want the kids to have books in their classrooms?" I walked away thinking maybe they need to find other ways to get the money to the kids, rather than increasing sales taxes to us peons. The money is there, but its going to administrators, and other line items that are not needed. Just try to get an aide for a kid with autism in this state. You have to fight tooth and nail. WHY are we still 48th ?What is going on?
And why should I have to pay for a one on one aid? That should be on the parent and their health insurance, not me........
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:59 AM
 
Location: outer space
484 posts, read 966,869 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston3 View Post
And why should I have to pay for a one on one aid? That should be on the parent and their health insurance, not me........
I understand your feelings. For instance, I am very healthy: exercise more than most people and eat very healthy. So I think that my health insurance premiums should be lower. With the obesity rate and looking at what most people choose to eat as food, it just doesn't seem fair. I am all for taking a health test and determining premiums that way.

On the other hand, a case like autism, well that isn't a choice that someone made and then we must ask ourselves if we are in for the greater good or not. I'm not saying the system is perfect as is but where do we stand in terms of fundamentals? Is it worth it to me to pay taxes to subsidize corn that I don't eat. I don't think so. Is it worth it to me to have a young struggling individual become a productive member of society no matter where they came from or what ailments they were born with, yes.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:01 AM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
8,025 posts, read 12,176,145 times
Reputation: 9793
Quote:
Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
On the other hand, a case like autism, well that isn't a choice that someone made and then we must ask ourselves if we are in for the greater good or not. I'm not saying the system is perfect as is but where do we stand in terms of fundamentals? Is it worth it to me to pay taxes to subsidize corn that I don't eat. I don't think so. Is it worth it to me to have a young struggling individual become a productive member of society no matter where they came from or what ailments they were born with, yes.
Autism seems to be overly diagnosed these days ... almost like it's the latest fad. Why is it that so many children are diagnosed with autism now compared to 20 or 30 years ago?! I remember the movie "Rain Main" which came out in the late 1980s, and at that time it was portrayed as something very unique & out of the ordinary. Flash forward to 2012 and it seems like every third or fourth child has some form of it. Is it worth it to always be categorizing somebody as having "special needs" just to get extra funding? Perhaps it is worth it to some people more than others ... and that's when I say that volunteering and personal monetary contributions to the causes are the best method, instead of forced taxation on everybody.

Also, while a true case of autism isn't a choice somebody made, it IS a choice to have children. I still say that if a couple is struggling financially and unable to afford the care, the upbringing, and the education entirely on their own, they have no business having children. Public education is the most costly expenditure in the budget ... and it has been proven that the quality is just not there regardless of how much tax money is put into the system. Contrary to what the bleeding hearts claim, the system is NOT underfunded by any means. People with kids in school need to start contributing much more on their part, instead of relying on the gov't to do everything for them!
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Phoenix,az
391 posts, read 837,533 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
I understand your feelings. For instance, I am very healthy: exercise more than most people and eat very healthy. So I think that my health insurance premiums should be lower. With the obesity rate and looking at what most people choose to eat as food, it just doesn't seem fair. I am all for taking a health test and determining premiums that way.
That is the German healthcare system. You get credits for being staying healthy along with a lower premium. Finish this 5 mile hike and get a credit. Easy fitness test if you ask me. I have no opinions on the US system nor do I care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
On the other hand, a case like autism, well that isn't a choice that someone made and then we must ask ourselves if we are in for the greater good or not. I'm not saying the system is perfect as is but where do we stand in terms of fundamentals? Is it worth it to me to pay taxes to subsidize corn that I don't eat. I don't think so. Is it worth it to me to have a young struggling individual become a productive member of society no matter where they came from or what ailments they were born with, yes.
My thoughts exactly. I agree to an extent on the overly diagnosed problem. Not every kid has ADD because he can't pay attention in class, nor does every kid have autism. Too many latchkey kids roaming around in the United States. THAT is the problem. There is no reason to sacrifice a child's development over new stuff. It benefits no one.

Stop the overpayment to administration, in AZ, $120K to a superintendent of a 2 school district? really? Stop the 40+ child kindergarten classes or any classes of that size for K-6. Uniforms only. No more charter, online, or private funding from the state or fed. It cheapens the value of education in a bad way.

Zero tolerance for parent> admin> teacher drama. Zero tolerance for grade manipulation by administration. Zero tolerance for bad teachers and that dress or act inappropriate in or out of school.

Stop wasteful spending on books, that do the same thing the last year text did. Put liability behind the families that lease these books out. The child loses it, the parents pay, the child marks in it, the parents pay. Make the parents sign understand what they are getting into when leasing a book. Sounds like common sense to me.

Don't even get me started on the selfish high schools.

Sorry I am a little tired if it's hard to read.
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:55 AM
 
Location: outer space
484 posts, read 966,869 times
Reputation: 393
Certainly autism is diagnosed in cases where it is not the real issue. But misdiagnoses are a different problem than what I was discussing.

I also understand the feeling that having a child is a choice. I don't have children and won't, there are too many people as far as I am concerned. Frankly, I think that maybe there should be an increased tax burden for each child rather than a tax break or something that at least does not encourage having more children.

Came across this study, haven't finished it yet:
http://www.schoolfundingfairness.org...eport_Card.pdf
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