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So the issue remains: Arizona is near the bottom in spending. So, what to do? Increase spending/taxes and hope for the best? Probably not going to happen in a state that has historically marketed itself as a retirement haven.
The problem is extremely complex and throwing more money at it will solve nothing. The biggest problem is that education is a huge boondoggle, wasting countless billions a year on BS concepts that yield no positive results. To change all of this will be very difficult due to all the funding links among local, state and federal government.
The focus needs to be on mastering basics while trying to get as many parents as possible involved at home in promoting the need for a good education. That's the biggest difference between successful and unsuccessful students.
Out of 50 states, someone is going to be first, and someone is going to be last. That does not mean that the last place is bad, it is just how the rank order goes. All relative ranking does is create a cold war type race to spend the most money with no regard to the law of diminishing returns. DC spends the most per capita on their school system sucks.
In absolute spending terms, being ranked 48th means nothing, it is just relative to other states, it does not mean there is inadequate funding.
As far as textbooks, computers etc; I imagine that schools will always will be behind the curve when it comes to computers, they just cannot keep up with the fast pace of technology, most kids know more than the teachers anyway. For textbooks, my HS had one per desk, not even per student, and we did not have AC, yet we had a 98% graduation rate. Amazingly enough, the graduation rate has slipped to 96% after the town has grown twice in population and has a new HS and new textbooks for everyone issued every other year.
Money is not the answer and never will be, but it is easier to throw money at something and rally around that idea then tackle the core problems of education.
You still do not get it. If all education was subtracted out, the public would still have to pay for the privatized education system, and it would cost more than public schools do today. The education system would still be paid for with public dollars.
Solutions:
Do away with tenure, and make each teacher responsible for the results. Being retained would depend on the results the teacher got with her class. Weed out the poor teachers each year. The same as when I ran businesses up to being division sales manager for a major corporation for every thing west of the Mississippi River. If people did not perform, they were let go. If the teacher does not perform up to standards (adjusted for the quality of students they are teaching as an example allotting credits to teacher if they are teaching a lot of non English speaker), out the door they go.
Raise teacher pay to the point, that you can attract good teachers into the system. Remember you get what you pay for. There is an old saying, 'Those that can do do, and those that cannot do become teachers'. There are a lot of good teachers, but there are a lot of people in education that did not qualify for a better job. Too many good teachers are hired away every year by private industry.
Example: I had a daughter in law that was an outstanding teacher, teaching high school math and science. Problem: The Salary no matter how much she loved teaching. Private industry came along and offered her almost triple her salary to go to work as a chemist department head. Because of the low salary for teachers, the good ones are hired away from teaching in droves leaving the ones that can't get a better job protected and kept on the job by tenure and teachers unions.
Bring teaching aids up to the modern world. Imagine, some schools that do not have computers for the kids to use, in a time when they have to learn to use a computer. You have to be able to use a computer, to work at the counter in McDonald's. And that is the bottom level. We are told that more than half of the jobs that will be available in this country in 10 years, have not even been invented yet, and they will all involve computers to do the job. Other schools are providing each student with a lap top to use, and if they do not have the Internet at home, the school is providing it for those too poor to have it as in our part of the country for certain classes. I have three 8 to 10 year old grandsons that are better with a computer than the average adult. It is amazing what these kids know and understand, and a lot of it is because of using computers. Everyone one of them, has his own computer at home (not provided by the school) to do school work on.
Decent schools are no longer, reading, writing and arithmetic. Today the students are way ahead of this type of thing.
If you want good education in Arizona, you are going to have to spend the money, hire better teachers and bring the education system kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.
You still do not get it. If all education was subtracted out, the public would still have to pay for the privatized education system, and it would cost more than public schools do today. The education system would still be paid for with public dollars.
Solutions:
Do away with tenure, and make each teacher responsible for the results. Being retained would depend on the results the teacher got with her class. Weed out the poor teachers each year. The same as when I ran businesses up to being division sales manager for a major corporation for every thing west of the Mississippi River. If people did not perform, they were let go. If the teacher does not perform up to standards (adjusted for the quality of students they are teaching as an example allotting credits to teacher if they are teaching a lot of non English speaker), out the door they go.
Raise teacher pay to the point, that you can attract good teachers into the system. Remember you get what you pay for. There is an old saying, 'Those that can do do, and those that cannot do become teachers'. There are a lot of good teachers, but there are a lot of people in education that did not qualify for a better job. Too many good teachers are hired away every year by private industry.
Example: I had a daughter in law that was an outstanding teacher, teaching high school math and science. Problem: The Salary no matter how much she loved teaching. Private industry came along and offered her almost triple her salary to go to work as a chemist department head. Because of the low salary for teachers, the good ones are hired away from teaching in droves leaving the ones that can't get a better job protected and kept on the job by tenure and teachers unions.
Bring teaching aids up to the modern world. Imagine, some schools that do not have computers for the kids to use, in a time when they have to learn to use a computer. You have to be able to use a computer, to work at the counter in McDonald's. And that is the bottom level. We are told that more than half of the jobs that will be available in this country in 10 years, have not even been invented yet, and they will all involve computers to do the job. Other schools are providing each student with a lap top to use, and if they do not have the Internet at home, the school is providing it for those too poor to have it as in our part of the country for certain classes. I have three 8 to 10 year old grandsons that are better with a computer than the average adult. It is amazing what these kids know and understand, and a lot of it is because of using computers. Everyone one of them, has his own computer at home (not provided by the school) to do school work on.
Decent schools are no longer, reading, writing and arithmetic. Today the students are way ahead of this type of thing.
If you want good education in Arizona, you are going to have to spend the money, hire better teachers and bring the education system kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.
Here you have: the complete contradiction: "kids don't need no skillz like readin and math and stuff" they just need money for Ipads.
They don't need to learn how to program these gadgets, just how to use them?
Just for starters, how about all the schools that have popped up over the past few decades that are basically masters at one thing: working the financial aide system leaving students in massive debt with useless degrees and certificates. Frontline did a great piece on this a few months back.
Keeping it to AZ. We have a to the bone budget that doesn't allow for the extravaganzas that other states have created such as large bureaucracies with more money going to asst. supers, asst. principals, curriculum advisers, business agents, and unfunded pension and benefits packages.
Last edited by Burning Madolf; 07-14-2012 at 12:14 PM..
Just for starters, how about all the schools that have popped up over the past few decades that are basically masters at one thing: working the financial aide system leaving students in massive debt with useless degrees and certificates. Frontline did a great piece on this a few months back.
Keeping it to AZ. We have a to the bone budget that doesn't allow for the extravaganzas that other states have created such as large bureaucracies with more money going to asst. supers, asst. principals, curriculum advisers, business agents, and unfunded pension and benefits packages.
That's not even remotely what I asked. Let's try this again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning Madolf
The biggest problem is that education is a huge boondoggle, wasting countless billions a year on BS concepts that yield no positive results.
What I said to this was, "Like what?" What are these BS concepts that yield no positive results? I had kids in the AZ school system for five years, and I didn't consider any of it to be BS concepts. They were taught English, math and science. So maybe you can explain yourself, unlike the person who mocked AIMS testing by implying one could do well on the test with no real skills. That's total BS and when I called him on it, he couldn't explain himself.
That kind of bad-mouthing the school system seems rampant in this thread. As near as I can tell, it's nothing but baseless self-serving rationalizations to short-change the school system even worse than they are now. So prove me wrong, Burny. Tell us which BS concepts you don't agree with.
That's not even remotely what I asked. Let's try this again.
What I said to this was, "Like what?" What are these BS concepts that yield no positive results? I had kids in the AZ school system for five years, and I didn't consider any of it to be BS concepts. They were taught English, math and science. So maybe you can explain yourself, unlike the person who mocked AIMS testing by implying one could do well on the test with no real skills. That's total BS and when I called him on it, he couldn't explain himself.
That kind of bad-mouthing the school system seems rampant in this thread. As near as I can tell, it's nothing but baseless self-serving rationalizations to short-change the school system even worse than they are now. So prove me wrong, Burny. Tell us which BS concepts you don't agree with.
The biggest BS concept in education is that more money automatically equals better results (the origins of this thread).
I'm not talking the micro picture, I'm talking big picture: the give us more money and everything will be better attitude.
I'm not mocking teaching styles or testing or NCLB, I'm simply pointing out that other factors contribute to low performance and just throwing more money at the problem is not the only answer but often times the quickest.
Not that I need to justify myself and my opinion to you.
1---Low Salaries, so that the one that would be good teachers, will not teach. They go to other states, or private industry instead. You end up with teachers, that are from the bottom of the graduating classes and are not good teachers.
3---To many students per teacher, and at a certain point depending on the type of class, this leaves a lot of kids behind.
2---Not enough money for good text books, computers, and other teaching tools. The kids taught without modern teaching tools, are going to be behind those that have adequate teaching tools in their schooling.
Quote:
Keeping it to AZ. We have a to the bone budget that doesn't allow for the extravaganzas that other states have created such as large bureaucracies with more money going to asst. supers, asst. principals, curriculum advisers, business agents, and unfunded pension and benefits packages.
Some of the reasons that Arizona is having problems with their schools. Remember, Arizona is considered to have the next to worst school system in the entire United States. We are at a time that other areas of the country are trying to prepare kids for the rest of their lives with an education that will allow them to prosper. Arizona is trying to do everything so much on the cheap, they are shortchanging their students and are hurting the kids future.
This inadequate school problem is a big reason why, Arizona is doing so poor with the 44th worst economy in the nation. Corporations that would bring good jobs to Arizona and raise the economy of the state, are staying out of the state going to where they have decent education systems. In other words, the 49th worst education system is a big reason that Arizona has the 44th worst economy.
You will not get a big raise in the economy without first raising the education system.
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