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blueleo65, I must say that MICHAEL J pretty much stated my response, except I would like to add to it.
I am not always very eloquent, but here goes. The only thing I mentioned that could be taken as nostalgic was my mention of my father and Goldwater in 1964. I do not see how the rest of my post was meant to "hearken to the good 'ol days". As I posted, my experience in learning about the people's political attitude in Arizona made me want to move there full time; the things that happened while I lived there re-enforced it, and the laws passed and other events since I have moved further re-enforces my opinion. There was no fantasy there, it was and is all reality. To be specific, I think that some of the laws Arizona has passed recently are a step forward; a step forward away from Federal Government intrusion and an attempt to re-empower the Tenth amendment.
As MICHAEL J put so well above, some of us in this country, and especially those who live in Arizona both physically and in spirit feel that being patriotic to our country means supporting the Constitution which when you read it, almost requires us to not like what our Federal Government has become. Not liking what our government has become does not equal not liking our country.
And as such, I will re-iterate what I already posted, the US Government is the largest corporation and employer in this country. It does not get it's money in regular trade, i.e. goods and/or services in exchange for our money. It just takes our money. It is not run to make a profit nor to be efficient, it is running at a constant deficit. Though you have not totally come out and said so, you elude to the fact you want this deficit non efficient government to have more control over our lives. I sir, say you need to learn the difference between reality and fantasy.
My eloquence has run out, thank you MICHAEL J.
So what you are implying is let's get rid of the US Government, the largest corporation and let other corporations run our lives. Anyone with $$$ can vote in corporations. Large Chinese banks can buy stocks and have controlling share in a large US corporation. You need to be a U.S. citizen to vote in the U.S.
Any large institution whether government or not have some degree of inefficiency. Paying off gov't debt? Ok, let's cut off government benefits let's see how the voter would react to that. Maybe you'd want the way what Gov. Brewer did was raise sales tax supposedly aimed for education and steal surpluses from AZ towns and cities to balance the state budget. Laws gets changed every now and then, btw.
Your formula works well in a fantasy land but in reality it nearly destroyed the country that you "loved".
Yeah, let's cut taxes to corporations and the wealthy and hope that they would create jobs in the country that you "loved". Try googling "21 trillion in tax haven" ( Google )
AZ will turn blue in about 10 years. Old white folks die sooner or later, fyi. AZ has a large Hispanic population. The younger generation (the same generation that Romney is blaming for his lost) from California and AZ are here to stay. Out of 9 congressional members, 5 are democrats. Sen-elect Jeff Flake lost by only 4 percentage pts. That's an AZ trend for ya. And yes, there are old white folks that can turn blue - like me.
So what you are implying is let's get rid of the US Government, the largest corporation and let other corporations run our lives. Anyone with $$$ can vote in corporations. Large Chinese banks can buy stocks and have controlling share in a large US corporation. You need to be a U.S. citizen to vote in the U.S.
Any large institution whether government or not have some degree of inefficiency. Paying off gov't debt? Ok, let's cut off government benefits let's see how the voter would react to that. Maybe you'd want the way what Gov. Brewer did was raise sales tax supposedly aimed for education and steal surpluses from AZ towns and cities to balance the state budget. Laws gets changed every now and then, btw.
Your formula works well in a fantasy land but in reality it nearly destroyed the country that you "loved".
Yeah, let's cut taxes to corporations and the wealthy and hope that they would create jobs in the country that you "loved". Try googling "21 trillion in tax haven" ( Google )
AZ will turn blue in about 10 years. Old white folks die sooner or later, fyi. AZ has a large Hispanic population. The younger generation (the same generation that Romney is blaming for his lost) from California and AZ are here to stay. Out of 9 congressional members, 5 are democrats. Sen-elect Jeff Flake lost by only 4 percentage pts. That's an AZ trend for ya. And yes, there are old white folks that can turn blue - like me.
What a tirade. As soon as you start Demonizing and Stereotyping Older people and White People you lost your argument as far as I'm concerned (Regardless of your color). You do know the vast majority of the Democrats in the US House and Senate are both older and White? Maybe you hope they die off too? You could have said you could hardly wait for Older Black folks to die off to and it would be as equally offensive.
What a tirade. As soon as you start Demonizing and Stereotyping Older people and White People you lost your argument as far as I'm concerned (Regardless of your color). You do know the vast majority of the Democrats in the US House and Senate are both older and White? Maybe you hope they die off too? You could have said you could hardly wait for Older Black folks to die off to and it would be as equally offensive.
No. I wasn't demonizing and stereotyping white and older people. I'm NOT hoping they die off, also. I want older folks (white, black, hispanics etc..) to live longer fruitful lives.
It doesn't bother me either if you can't counter argue my comments.
Last edited by citynomad; 11-16-2012 at 11:55 AM..
So what you are implying is let's get rid of the US Government, the largest corporation and let other corporations run our lives. Anyone with $$$ can vote in corporations. Large Chinese banks can buy stocks and have controlling share in a large US corporation. You need to be a U.S. citizen to vote in the U.S.
Any large institution whether government or not have some degree of inefficiency. Paying off gov't debt? Ok, let's cut off government benefits let's see how the voter would react to that. Maybe you'd want the way what Gov. Brewer did was raise sales tax supposedly aimed for education and steal surpluses from AZ towns and cities to balance the state budget. Laws gets changed every now and then, btw.
Your formula works well in a fantasy land but in reality it nearly destroyed the country that you "loved".
Yeah, let's cut taxes to corporations and the wealthy and hope that they would create jobs in the country that you "loved". Try googling "21 trillion in tax haven" ( Google )
AZ will turn blue in about 10 years. Old white folks die sooner or later, fyi. AZ has a large Hispanic population. The younger generation (the same generation that Romney is blaming for his lost) from California and AZ are here to stay. Out of 9 congressional members, 5 are democrats. Sen-elect Jeff Flake lost by only 4 percentage pts. That's an AZ trend for ya. And yes, there are old white folks that can turn blue - like me.
What an ugly response. No one implied anything close to getting rid of the US Government. Rants that come out of left field like this are what makes it so difficult to have a reasonable adult-like discussion based in reality.
What an ugly response. No one implied anything close to getting rid of the US Government. Rants that come out of left field like this are what makes it so difficult to have a reasonable adult-like discussion based in reality.
I couldn't agree more. citynomad, you put a lot of words in my mouth that my post didn't even mention. But I will answer directly the first part of your post that I have quoted below. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by citynomad
<snip>and let other corporations run our lives.<snip>
Any large institution whether government or not have some degree of inefficiency. <snip>
As mike above stated, nobody ever said anything about getting rid of the US government. But as observer said, let's keep this about how politics affect Arizona. As I stated, the Arizonans that I knew and lived with ran their own lives and would probably like to continue doing so with as little government intervention as possible. Personally, I run the corporations lives by choosing which one I trade my knowledge and labor to to earn my money. Then I chose which one I trade that money with for goods and services.
As for the second part of your post I quoted, sure any large institution can have some degree of inefficiency, but non-governmental ones will soon fail.
Arizona will turn blue in about 10 years - California, the state that set the trends in the America (and yes, it gave us Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon). The Republicans in California are pretty much extinct. You've heard 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas' . Well, 'What happens in California, happens in America' . Deal with it. Times have changed. Gov't is now the solution , not the problem. The world is now more competitive and we need to have gov't to help us back on our feet.
Last edited by observer53; 11-24-2012 at 10:23 PM..
No my comments aren't rants and I'm NOT putting words into your mouths, they are observations. My comments are adult-like and respectful.
So this time, you guys changed your mind from getting rid of the U.S. Government or any gov't including Arizona to 'little' gov't . I presented the same arguments from several internet posts and to individuals face-to-face, I'd initially get the response 'Let's get rid of this and that' or 'I ain't paying for it' but when they get into trouble who do they call for help - Uncle Sam or Miss Grand Canyon.
Nice try.
Here's another reason why Arizona will turn blue in about 10 years - California, the state that set the trends in the America (and yes, it gave us Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon). The Republicans in California are pretty much extinct. You've heard 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas' . Well, 'What happens in California, happens in America' . Deal with it. Times have changed. Gov't is now the solution , not the problem. The world is now more competitive and we need to have gov't to help us back on our feet.
If in fact, we have become a society with our hand out and looking to government for solutions, as you claim, I am deeply saddened. This is not the society in which I was raised nor in which I raised my children.
Individuals and businesses are fleeing the liberal ruinous state of California by the tens of thousands. They seek refuge and economic opportunities in the red states of Arizona, Texas and others. Let us hope they accept their new environment rather than attempt to change it.
History teaches us that we fought for our independence from large intrusive government. Perhaps we have come full circle and we are now that from which we fled. I hope this is not the legacy we leave our children and grandchildren.
You may be right citynomad, but I pray that you are not.
yeah although I'm a hard core libertarian (extreme social liberal, capitalist, RKBA), the perceived social conservatism in Arizona does not bother me. Phoenix in particular is such a large community that people don't wear their ideology on their sleeves. I lived in a very social conservative town in California and it freaked me out. There are enough atheist libertarians like myself in Phoenix that I can be comfortable. And if some state laws are draconian here that prevents a freedom I like, I can basically fly to a place where the freedom is available and government does not care, be there for a weekend or a week and be back in Phoenix where no one cares.
I have a gut feeling that Nevada's tax-free status will disappear while Arizona's will be more appealing and our taxes will be cut further. In fact I would not be surprised that Arizona's taxes will be lower than Nevada's one day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX-PHX
Those are some good observations. I agree with much of it. I think Vegas and Phoenix do attract people from the same part of the country but it does seem like Phoenix gets more people that want to get away from liberal politics and big city issues than those that go to Vegas. It does seem like a lot of Orange County types move to Phoenix and live in gated communities and want to be shut off from the world. I think at it's core Arizona is libertarian and other than LDS is not overly religious. It definitely is not run by evangelicals. However it seems like with Catholics from the east, Lutherans, etal from the Midwest form a coalition with the mormons to push laws and ideas that are out of touch with mainstream Arizonans. Unfortunately many fiscally conservative Arizonans who do not necessarily agree with the social conservatives overlook their differences to vote for someone with an R next to their name. And too many of the liberal types in Arizona don't even bother to get involved at all. General apathy leads to people like Jan Brewer and Joe Arpaio getting elected.
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