Minimum Security Prison Proposed for Prescott Valley (Phoenix, Lake Havasu City: relocating, incomes)

[Shelly C]

Originally Posted by Gretchen B

Nitram - so far I've not heard too much negative feedback. I think BiggsHomes comments are probably pretty typical. I've heard the Martha Stewart comment several times. People see 400-500 jobs and think, Wow! Jobs! But really, I think it needs to be considered what kinds of jobs are being created. Will these jobs and the accompanying costs associated with infrastructure, etc, really benefit the community in the long run?

At this point, it is completely up to the Town Council. My understanding is that they will vote on Oct. 25th. I guess that will be the only chance for public input. Of course, I suppose they could choose to table it and allow time for public comment.

There have been a few editorials begging that it not be approved. I think the water issue was one that was mentioned a couple of times. But, generally speaking, I would say most folks are ambivilant about the project.

Town meeting is on Thursday please come voice your concerns. We need strong people who have researched this.

[Gretchen B]

Originally Posted by JeepGirl118

Gretchen, I would say that those living in Sebring, FL and Avon Park, FL (side-by-side small towns) would be great to ask. Sebring is similar to PV in regard to tourists and winter homes - also due to the Sebring Raceway. That place is smokin' hot - and with the mall and everything popping up left and right there - and Olive Garden coming soon and just got a new Circuit City, Petco, Bed Bath and Beyond, etc - they would be a good example of a "prison town" with Avon Park Correctional Institution only about 15 minutes from Sebring's town center at the Air Force Bombing Range. Thought about that while driving earlier and wanted to mention it before I forget. I think that may help shed some more light to show the upside of a prison town and so forth. Shows that its what the people make of it. Avon Park is so small, but the two towns basically share all the same town shopping and amenities, Hope that helps.

Well, I did my best to research the statistics in the following towns: Sebring and Avon Park, as well as Florence and Kingman, AZ. I wasn't sure the best source for statistics, so I used the City-Data main site. Hopefully their figures are fairly accurate - they certainly are extensive for sure.

When I looked at the towns statistics and compared them with Prescott and Prescott Valley, I found that the level of education in most of the "prison" towns was very low. The crime rates were usually higher, but not always - (one of the towns was significantly lower). Sebring's crime rate was 3 X's the national average! I don't know if that was some skewed static or not. Let's see, the wage levels were usually much lower than the state average (although Prescott and PV wages are about the AZ average, the wages are low in comparison to housing costs). Housing prices were generally much lower in the prison towns. And new housing starts were very low compared with the state averages until last year, which might indicate that lower than normal prices attracted developers to try and capitalize on cheap land. And the growth in the prison towns has been rather slow, especially considering that the prisons were supposed to boost the local economy. The statistic would appear to indicate that it may have had the opposite effect and that growth is just recently occuring because the lure of cheap prices outweighed the dampening effect of the prison coming in.

So, JeepGirl, in all fairness, at least according to City-Data statistics, the economies of the prison towns were generally not nearly as robust as the current economy of Prescott/Prescott Valley, and education levels were definitely very low by comparison. I'm not sure what that means, but something that's a little troubling.

In adding up the taxpayer costs associated with the prison (as shown in the local newspaper article I quoted and linked earlier, the estimated costs are already at $15 million. That's a heckuvalot of $$$$ to attract a prison. And it would appear that many are very strongly opposed to the prison coming in. Shelly C and the other PV poster from the midwest aren't the only ones I've heard of that will probably be looking to move if the prison is built. More houses on the market mean home prices will be affected and prices will drop.

[Artliquide]

Ok, now look at the economy of PV sans prison. It's not exactly known as the economic hot spot of Arizona. It's not where many of the jobs are, and income hasn't been high there in the past. Yes, PV has grown lately, but looking at current economies in prison towns might not be the best way to judge how a new prison might affect the community, since PV isn't the most prosperous area of Arizona in the first place. From what I hear, it's a great place to retire (because it's peaceful and beautiful), but that's no indication of local economy or how the community may be affected by a new prison.

[Gretchen B]

Originally Posted by Artliquide

Ok, now look at the economy of PV sans prison. It's not exactly known as the economic hot spot of Arizona. It's not where many of the jobs are, and income hasn't been high there in the past. Yes, PV has grown lately, but looking at current economies in prison towns might not be the best way to judge how a new prison might affect the community, since PV isn't the most prosperous area of Arizona in the first place. From what I hear, it's a great place to retire (because it's peaceful and beautiful), but that's no indication of local economy or how the community may be affected by a new prison.

Artliquide - you might want to come for a visit.

Of course you won't find as large a variety of jobs in a town of 35,000 like you will in a metropolitan area. However, Inc.com ranked Prescott #3 for jobs outlook in smaller cities. Here's the link: Top 20 Small Cities - Job Growth - Small Business - Entrepreneurial Cities

Then check out the City-Data stats. I know . . . people complain. And the cost of housing is high here, but our unemployment rate is low and our growth rate is high. Prescott Valley has been one of the fastest growing towns in the U.S. The one sector that's hurting right now is residential construction (commercial construction is HUGE up here), but I think the housing slowdown has affected people all over the country, not just in PV.

Prescott & Prescott Valley have many very nice $1m+ homes and a LOT of new commercial developments. Yes . . . the area is prosperous.

[Artliquide]

Originally Posted by Gretchen B

Artliquide - you might want to come for a visit.

Of course you won't find as large a variety of jobs in a town of 35,000 like you will in a metropolitan area. However, Inc.com ranked Prescott #3 for jobs outlook in smaller cities. Here's the link: Top 20 Small Cities - Job Growth - Small Business - Entrepreneurial Cities

Then check out the City-Data stats. I know . . . people complain. And the cost of housing is high here, but our unemployment rate is low and our growth rate is high. Prescott Valley has been one of the fastest growing towns in the U.S. The one sector that's hurting right now is residential construction (commercial construction is HUGE up here), but I think the housing slowdown has affected people all over the country, not just in PV.

Prescott & Prescott Valley have many very nice $1m+ homes and a LOT of new commercial developments. Yes . . . the area is prosperous.

I have been there many times, but what I mean when I say that it's not known to be the prime economic spot in AZ is that if, say, someone were thinking of relocating there but didn't already have a job lined up, and didn't necessarily have a specific job they are qualified for, would they find a job quickly? Would they be paid enough to afford housing there? I agree that it's a lovely place, but if someone wanted to relocate to AZ without a job, they would go to Phoenix or Tucson, just because there's more opportunity, because they're bigger towns. I get the impression that the reason your community leaders want to accept the prison is to boost the economy (providing more jobs, more growth). Is that not correct?

[Gretchen B]

Originally Posted by Artliquide

I have been there many times, but what I mean when I say that it's not known to be the prime economic spot in AZ is that if, say, someone were thinking of relocating there but didn't already have a job lined up, and didn't necessarily have a specific job they are qualified for, would they find a job quickly? Would they be paid enough to afford housing there? I agree that it's a lovely place, but if someone wanted to relocate to AZ without a job, they would go to Phoenix or Tucson, just because there's more opportunity, because they're bigger towns. I get the impression that the reason your community leaders want to accept the prison is to boost the economy (providing more jobs, more growth). Is that not correct?

Yes, jobs is the big reason that the prison is being promoted. The prison is a "quick fix". And we do need high paying jobs in the Prescott/Prescott Valley area. So the question becomes are $15/hr jobs really going to solve the problem. Our median house prices are about $225k in PV and $325k in Prescott. The problem is that $15/hr jobs will not tempt people to move here, because they won't be able to afford housing. (It would provide a nice 2ND income for those who already live here and want to work in a prison. My understanding is that it's not for everyone.)

And . . . there's a minimum of $15,000,000 cost to the taxpayers on the front side, and ongoing costs related to providing halfway houses, parole officers, social services, etc, if the released prisoners stay in the area.

Then, too, what if a local resident does not want to work at the prison? Then they have to compete against the work/release prisoners and prisoners staying in the community for jobs.

Now, if bringing a prison to a community really does boost local economies, then why aren't the communities that have brought in prisons for that reason seeing an economy that's at least better than where Prescott and PV are right now? You've heard from others in this thread who have lived in towns where the prison came in and it had the opposite effect. I, too, have personally seen the same thing happen.

There's a MUCH bigger picture to this whole thing than the superficial view of "Jobs!!!" There's a good chance the cost of those jobs is too high. Prescott/Prescott Valley need to not take the "easy" route, but need to work hard to bring high paying jobs to the area - not $15/hr prison jobs.

[Artliquide]

Originally Posted by Gretchen B

Yes, jobs is the big reason that the prison is being promoted. The prison is a "quick fix". And we do need high paying jobs in the Prescott/Prescott Valley area. So the question becomes are $15/hr jobs really going to solve the problem. Our median house prices are about $225k in PV and $325k in Prescott. The problem is that $15/hr jobs will not tempt people to move here, because they won't be able to afford housing. (It would provide a nice 2ND income for those who already live here and want to work in a prison. My understanding is that it's not for everyone.)

And . . . there's a minimum of $15,000,000 cost to the taxpayers on the front side, and ongoing costs related to providing halfway houses, parole officers, social services, etc, if the released prisoners stay in the area.

Then, too, what if a local resident does not want to work at the prison? Then they have to compete against the work/release prisoners and prisoners staying in the community for jobs.

Now, if bringing a prison to a community really does boost local economies, then why aren't the communities that have brought in prisons for that reason seeing an economy that's at least better than where Prescott and PV are right now? You've heard from others in this thread who have lived in towns where the prison came in and it had the opposite effect. I, too, have personally seen the same thing happen.

There's a MUCH bigger picture to this whole thing than the superficial view of "Jobs!!!" There's a good chance the cost of those jobs is too high. Prescott/Prescott Valley need to not take the "easy" route, but need to work hard to bring high paying jobs to the area - not $15/hr prison jobs.

Yes, that makes sense. Why isn't the local government trying to bring in more white collar businesses? There are many jobs at many levels of experience and salary with office type jobs. Though, I can imagine that it would be difficult for PV to compete with Phoenix in that area. Like I said, the PV area is lovely, but it's a bit far from the metro areas to entice higher paying and more reputable industries.

[JeepGirl118]

Originally Posted by and the

Those are generally the kind that go to federal prisons, not state. Not because of their money or connections, but because they often get popped for RICO crimes or tax evasion, not generally dealing by themselves or possession. You're not likely to see many well-to-do and smart drug dealers in a state prison.

Not always the case. A lot of "white collar" drug dealers will pay their taxes through a legit company, per se. Our friend that we visit was living in a $4M home in North Scottsdale and had been selling for over 15 years -paying his taxes through a couple of his Trades-related companies. He received 12 years on the State level - not Federal. Just as Escort Service owners do not always get "popped" for tax evasion - but will get a 5-7'ish years for Pandering on the State level.

[JeepGirl118]

Originally Posted by Gretchen B

Sebring's crime rate was 3 X's the national average! I don't know if that was some skewed static or not.

Statistics are just that. . . statistics. Look at Lakeland, FL - their statistics look mighty high as well - yet, it's the same crowd doing the same crimes over and over (that was verified on the phone with the police when I called to check and others will tell you that about the Lakeland/Sebring/Lake Placid areas). Sebring is the type of town that you can actually leave your keys in the ignition while you run into the post office for a few minutes - you certainly cannot do that in PV. When you look at statistics, you have to read them per capita - cannot weigh any town/city's statistics against another city that has 10-40X the population. Of course it will look bad when you do that. Fountain Hills where I live has an awful crime rate when looked at in statistics - makes us look like we are a robbery and home invasion central when compared to statistics to Tempe. . which is not the case.

I had my parent's read this thread last night and they just cannot understand what all the fuss is about. The town is not exactly considered elite - it's not very expensive and they feel the homes are quite reasonably priced. They had a good point about something - if residents feel that if PV is very expensive, then maybe some better paying jobs and opportunity coming to the town will help better some resident incomes and expand their minds to where they will not see $1M as "very expensive" - when $1M is actually is becoming more and more average for homes nowadays.

For those who don't want the prison there . . I doubt the same who are complaining will even show up at the Town's meeting for it. Not that it would make much of a difference, but it's the mere point. Then again, you can always move instead of complaining about it for years upon years to come. . . .

[and the]

Not always the case. A lot of "white collar" drug dealers will pay their taxes through a legit company, per se. Our friend that we visit was living in a $4M home in North Scottsdale and had been selling for over 15 years -paying his taxes through a couple of his Trades-related companies. He received 12 years on the State level - not Federal. Just as Escort Service owners do not always get "popped" for tax evasion - but will get a 5-7'ish years for Pandering on the State level.

First, I said "generally", and second, I said "smart" drug dealers. Your friend the dope man may be well-to-do, but if he couldn't find a way to do his time in a federal prison as opposed to a state prison, he can't be all that bright. Any idiot can make a ton of money dealing narcotics, for a while.....The smart ones don't get caught, let alone get caught by a state agency. Then again, maybe the state offered him a better deal to roll over on someone. Better be careful who you associate with.....

Statistics are just that. . . statistics.

????? I always thought they were Buick Roadmasters....