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Old 02-22-2013, 01:14 PM
 
2,806 posts, read 3,175,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAinAZ View Post
That would be a big part of the problem right there. Why are millions of young people patiently waiting for someone else to make their situation better? This is still America. Go out and MAKE YOUR OWN AMERICAN DREAM HAPPEN! I grew up dirt poor on a small dairy farm. I had a kid before I graduated high school. 26 years later, I am still married to the same woman and have never been on Welfare. I have worked hard and continually bettered MYSELF. I paid out of my own pocket for college expenses and tuition and now have the job I always wanted. It took me over 20 years, but I am now doing exactly what I want to do. I made the American Dream happen for myself. Millions of young people can do the same.
Again, same problem - we cannot get sidetracked by individual success or failure stories while ignoring the fate of all Americans in aggregate. And that is a dire picture indeed. While one person can buck a trend for better or worse, a nation or generation cannot.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista
308 posts, read 790,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Again, same problem - we cannot get sidetracked by individual success or failure stories while ignoring the fate of all Americans in aggregate. And that is a dire picture indeed. While one person can buck a trend for better or worse, a nation or generation cannot.

I respectfully disagree with you. This nation and this generation MUST buck the trend and step up and change things themselves. They must get energized and change things instead of waiting for someone else to do it. They need to read history and learn what works and what doesn't. This country is headed down a path that has been trod before to the detriment of every country that ever tried it. I hope and pray this generation will buck the trend and decide it is time for them to take control of their lives instead of giving that control to a government that as a whole is only worried about re-election.
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Old 02-22-2013, 01:46 PM
 
2,806 posts, read 3,175,870 times
Reputation: 2703
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAinAZ View Post
I respectfully disagree with you. This nation and this generation MUST buck the trend and step up and change things themselves. They must get energized and change things instead of waiting for someone else to do it. They need to read history and learn what works and what doesn't. This country is headed down a path that has been trod before to the detriment of every country that ever tried it. I hope and pray this generation will buck the trend and decide it is time for them to take control of their lives instead of giving that control to a government that as a whole is only worried about re-election.
The problem is that the rules have been stacked against the people and in favor of the rich in the last 30-40 years. I agree it is upon the people to change that, and we are slowly starting into the right direction over the last few years. It is still a long way to re-establishing the rules that allowed during the mid ~1930s to early ~1970s for all Americans to prosper in one of the greatest and most equally shared gain in income and wealth in US history. Unless we get this done, there is no chance for the vast majority of our people, particularly the young generation, as we have seen in the last 30-40 years first hand. This experience alone should be enough for all of us to see that we have been going in a very wrong direction. This is not the first time in US history, for example income inequality was growing rapidly and rampant in the 1920s as well. In both cases a great depression/recession followed. When we passed the Bush tax cuts in 2003 on top of already rampant inequality it was clear that the next Great Downfall was only a matter of time. Yet we apparently had to relive the experience again. Ugh, talk about not learning from history.

A wise man once said: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:41 PM
 
861 posts, read 2,191,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
The problem is that the rules have been stacked against the people and in favor of the rich in the last 30-40 years. I agree it is upon the people to change that, and we are slowly starting into the right direction over the last few years. It is still a long way to re-establishing the rules that allowed during the mid ~1930s to early ~1970s for all Americans to prosper in one of the greatest and most equally shared gain in income and wealth in US history. Unless we get this done, there is no chance for the vast majority of our people, particularly the young generation, as we have seen in the last 30-40 years first hand. This experience alone should be enough for all of us to see that we have been going in a very wrong direction. This is not the first time in US history, for example income inequality was growing rapidly and rampant in the 1920s as well. In both cases a great depression/recession followed. When we passed the Bush tax cuts in 2003 on top of already rampant inequality it was clear that the next Great Downfall was only a matter of time. Yet we apparently had to relive the experience again. Ugh, talk about not learning from history.

A wise man once said: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
What I glean from this is that redistribution of wealth, socialized medicine,...or socialized just about everything, tax the rich feed the poor, etc etc....is the answer.

It wasn't the answer in the USSR, it hasn't worked very well in Europe and it wont work here.

Sooner or later we will reach a tipping point where the payers run out of resources and the payees find themselves without. But since the Guvment will have sold them on entitlements, austerity measures will seem so "unfair"....and riots and civil unrest will be the order of the day...it is already happening in parts of Europe.

I remember reading a quote years ago where a man compared the mentality at that time between France and the US.

In France when a pedestrian saw a rich man drive by in a luxury car he would say..."someday that man will be walking on the street just like me" ....in the USA when a pedestrian saw the same thing he would say "someday I will drive a car like that"

Unfortunately the attitude of many in America has changed....now it is "I am waiting for the government to do something to improve my situation" instead of "I am going to work my rear off to achieve my dreams"

Another thing....income equity usually means everybody is poor.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:56 PM
 
861 posts, read 2,191,015 times
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I recently spoke to a young man who because of a back injury ended up out of work in SoCal. When his back got better he was unable to find a good job, and worked flipping burgers, janitor, whatever he could to get by. And he had a family to support.

One day in desperation he prayed and asked God for help. The next day while at a friends house he was introduced to an Asian gentleman who graciously offered to help him learn how to buy and sell on eBay. He told me that he now makes better money than he did before he lost his job.

I know it works because a friend helped us get started with eBay a few years ago and it saved our bacon.

There are all kinds of ways out there to make it if you are willing to work at it.

Another thing.....if the American dream is so unavailable to folks nowadays....why is it that every Asian immigrant I have met has very little problem finding it???

The secret...HARD WORK!!!
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:39 PM
 
11 posts, read 17,024 times
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I would like to add a thought...most of the people that receive this assistance have paid taxes at some point and will have to again, therefore they are getting what they put in. Now with that being said, I do not believe that they should make government assistance a lifelong or longterm option...Get what you need, get on you feet and get off. Never become complacent!
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
9,599 posts, read 31,685,641 times
Reputation: 11741
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonapeachGA View Post
I would like to add a thought...most of the people that receive this assistance have paid taxes at some point and will have to again, therefore they are getting what they put in. Now with that being said, I do not believe that they should make government assistance a lifelong or longterm option...Get what you need, get on you feet and get off. Never become complacent!
Interesting point of view, ArizonaPeach . . .

Are you implying these individuals who are "getting what they paid in" have NOT received any other benefits from their tax payments?

Tax payments, both large and small, cover ALL benefits from Local to State to Federal so I have a feeling these individuals have received an abundance of benefits over the years . . . I know I have.

MY TWO CENTS WORTH . . .
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Western AZ
209 posts, read 432,602 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Let's keep perspective on this issue, please. While there is welfare fraud and a need to keep incentives for people to get on their own feet, in this country we developed a much bigger problem over the last 30-40 years: income inequality, impoverishment of large groups of the population, inability to move socially upward. The essence of the American Dream has been pretty much killed in the last 30-40 years. From that perspective I would like to commend the younger generation who saw drug abuse and crime rates go down substantially in the face of having their economic perspectives killed and our nation turned more and more into a hereditary money-aristocracy. Let's not get our perspective distorted by a few abuse cases while millions of young people in this country patiently wait for their situation to get better and their chance on the American Dream, whenever we allow it again for our whole society.
Also, the much bigger problem we face is that we withhold basic services from large parts of the people like universal health care even though we are one of the richest countries in he world (gdp per capita). Germany, for example, has much lower gdp per capita and still 100% of people have health insurance. There is no reason a richer country like the US would deny it to 20% or whatever it is now. Same goes for paid sick leave and many more basic rights that are self-evident in poorer countries. At the same time, income inequality in the US is higher than in any industrialized country or even semi-industrialized country, only to be surpassed by classic banana republics. These are the significant issues we need to focus on.
I'm sorry but I'm so sick of hearing this tripe. My story is much like the story of JAinAZ so I won't bore you with details. But, having grown up with nothing and making my own American dream happen I am now an employer.

My observation is that because of our "you owe me" society, the younger generations today are unwilling to work hard and make the necessary sacrifices the earlier generations accepted as reality. What BS, "wait patiently for their situation to get better".

My companies hire people on a regular basis. Here is reality... out of 10 people we hire 5 don't show up for their first day of work. Another three don't last the first week. This leaves two and chances are that at least one of those won't last 6 months. More than half turn out to be drug addicts. The rest are just lazy.

When I was growing up we admired those who had worked hard and become successful. We were taught that anything was possible and that someday we could be successful as well. Now we demonize the successful and reward the unwilling.

Redistribution... I redistribute on a daily basis to those willing to work.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:12 PM
 
861 posts, read 2,191,015 times
Reputation: 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL J View Post
I'm sorry but I'm so sick of hearing this tripe. My story is much like the story of JAinAZ so I won't bore you with details. But, having grown up with nothing and making my own American dream happen I am now an employer.

My observation is that because of our "you owe me" society, the younger generations today are unwilling to work hard and make the necessary sacrifices the earlier generations accepted as reality. What BS, "wait patiently for their situation to get better".

My companies hire people on a regular basis. Here is reality... out of 10 people we hire 5 don't show up for their first day of work. Another three don't last the first week. This leaves two and chances are that at least one of those won't last 6 months. More than half turn out to be drug addicts. The rest are just lazy.

When I was growing up we admired those who had worked hard and become successful. We were taught that anything was possible and that someday we could be successful as well. Now we demonize the successful and reward the unwilling.

Redistribution... I redistribute on a daily basis to those willing to work.
A few years ago Wal Mart opened up a Super Center here....and found it very difficult to man the store because so many prospective employees could not pass a drug test.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
9,599 posts, read 31,685,641 times
Reputation: 11741
Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL J View Post
I'm sorry but I'm so sick of hearing this tripe. My story is much like the story of JAinAZ so I won't bore you with details. But, having grown up with nothing and making my own American dream happen I am now an employer.

My observation is that because of our "you owe me" society, the younger generations today are unwilling to work hard and make the necessary sacrifices the earlier generations accepted as reality. What BS, "wait patiently for their situation to get better".

My companies hire people on a regular basis. Here is reality... out of 10 people we hire 5 don't show up for their first day of work. Another three don't last the first week. This leaves two and chances are that at least one of those won't last 6 months. More than half turn out to be drug addicts. The rest are just lazy.

When I was growing up we admired those who had worked hard and become successful. We were taught that anything was possible and that someday we could be successful as well. Now we demonize the successful and reward the unwilling.

Redistribution... I redistribute on a daily basis to those willing to work.
Excellent post, MICHAEL . . . beautifully stated.

Unfortunately, as long as the Obama Administration continues to encourage and enable the welfare recipients while insisting the "supposedly" rich citizens need to pay more and more . . . the situation is only going to get worse.
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