"So-called" Freedom Bill (Tempe: rated, schedule, Episcopal)

[KurtAZ]

Originally Posted by denverian

Well, I tend not to approve of someone's "freedom" to treat me like dirt. What the religious right wants is for gay people to respect their freedom to deny them services, fire them, etc. Gay people are not trying to shut down churches and deny certain Christians public services or government benefits. So no, I'm not tolerant of discrimination toward me.

Please don't lump all Christians in together...there are a ton of different view-points and as with any religion...the lunatic fringe give the rest a bad name. And again...while this bill came from a Christian Special Interest group...the legislation mentioned only "religion", not a specific faith.

[oping00]

People forget this is the same state and only state that didn't recognize MLK day as a national holiday about 10 years ago. I guess some things never change.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

Please don't lump all Christians in together...there are a ton of different view-points and as with any religion...the lunatic fringe give the rest a bad name. And again...while this bill came from a Christian Special Interest group...the legislation mentioned only "religion", not a specific faith.

Just like the Christians don't lump the gays together? How often have you seen someone refer to the "gay lifestyle" in this thread alone? At the end of the day, every piece of anti-gay legislation has a Christian behind it. Other than religious dogma, there is no valid argument against gay rights.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

Please don't lump all Christians in together...there are a ton of different view-points and as with any religion...the lunatic fringe give the rest a bad name. And again...while this bill came from a Christian Special Interest group...the legislation mentioned only "religion", not a specific faith.

Oh, I'm definitely not! That's why I said "some" Christians. I'm Presbyterian and my church is perfectly fine with gay people, just as they are

[denverian]

Originally Posted by oping00

People forget this is the same state and only state that didn't recognize MLK day as a national holiday about 10 years ago. I guess some things never change.

AZ is a politically odd state in the West, IMO. In many ways, it seems more aligned with Utah than any other surrounding states. Maybe due to a higher percentage of old retirees?

[KurtAZ]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

Just like the Christians don't lump the gays together? How often have you seen someone refer to the "gay lifestyle" in this thread alone? At the end of the day, every piece of anti-gay legislation has a Christian behind it. Other than religious dogma, there is no valid argument against gay rights.

Not disagreeing with you...but these so-called Christians have missed the basic tenants of Christianity to push an agenda. Christ didn't preach hate...it was all about love. Christians are also called not to judge...so while some get into their self-righteous "holier than thou" attitudes...again...not all Christians are the same.

As far as the LGBT rights thing...I agree with you...people are people and why you would need to make a law that allows someone to use a "religious" defense in court is beyond me. Although I would have kind of liked to have been on the first jury that tried one of these. It would have been entertaining to see someone try and prove their faith in a court of law. Faith and belief are pretty much intangibles...just because you go to church doesn't mean you believe.

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by oping00

People forget this is the same state and only state that didn't recognize MLK day as a national holiday about 10 years ago. I guess some things never change.

First of all, the MLK holiday fiasco was in the period 86-92, not 10 years ago.

Arizona was not the only state at the time. In 1989 there were 44 states with an MLK holiday.

The real issue was a bit more complex. Gov. Bruce Babbitt, after the legislature did not pass a holiday, declared it a holiday for employees of the executive branch, by executive order. His successor, Evan Mecham, who was later impeached, indicted and subject to recall, cancelled the holiday when he took office. Subsequently, in the 1990 election, there was a ballot proposition to adopt the holiday. Polls showed that it was going to pass. On the Sunday before the election, on an NFL pre-game show, commentator Greg Gumbel said that he had heard that the NFL would move the 1993 Super Bowl, which was scheduled to be held in Tempe, to Pasadena if the voters did not approve the holiday. This had not been widely reported prior to that and caused a huge backlash. The proposition failed, boycotts began and the Super Bowl was moved. Many people believe that the comments by Gumbel changed the outcome of the election. In 1992 the voters approved the holiday, and Arizona is in fact the only state to have enacted an MLK holiday by popular vote.

[KurtAZ]

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

First of all, the MLK holiday fiasco was in the period 86-92, not 10 years ago.

Arizona was not the only state at the time. In 1989 there were 44 states with an MLK holiday.

The real issue was a bit more complex. Gov. Bruce Babbitt, after the legislature did not pass a holiday, declared it a holiday for employees of the executive branch, by executive order. His successor, Evan Mecham, who was later impeached, indicted and subject to recall, cancelled the holiday when he took office. Subsequently, in the 1990 election, there was a ballot proposition to adopt the holiday. Polls showed that it was going to pass. On the Sunday before the election, on an NFL pre-game show, commentator Greg Gumbel said that he had heard that the NFL would move the 1993 Super Bowl, which was scheduled to be held in Tempe, to Pasadena if the voters did not approve the holiday. This had not been widely reported prior to that and caused a huge backlash. The proposition failed, boycotts began and the Super Bowl was moved. Many people believe that the comments by Gumbel changed the outcome of the election. In 1992 the voters approved the holiday, and Arizona is in fact the only state to have enacted an MLK holiday by popular vote.

Maybe because no one likes to be told what they HAVE to do and be held hostage by any authority? I keep seeing that people are patting themselves on the back saying they pressured Gov. Brewer to veto this...pretty sure it was going to get vetoed just through popular opinion. The business concerns were just the kicker.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

Not disagreeing with you...but these so-called Christians have missed the basic tenants of Christianity to push an agenda. Christ didn't preach hate...it was all about love. Christians are also called not to judge...so while some get into their self-righteous "holier than thou" attitudes...again...not all Christians are the same.

As far as the LGBT rights thing...I agree with you...people are people and why you would need to make a law that allows someone to use a "religious" defense in court is beyond me. Although I would have kind of liked to have been on the first jury that tried one of these. It would have been entertaining to see someone try and prove their faith in a court of law. Faith and belief are pretty much intangibles...just because you go to church doesn't mean you believe.

Agreed. I've said this before but, it's a shame because when I was growing up Christianity was all about love and helping others. Being a Christian meant you put others before you and belittling someone else was the last thing one would do. I'm afraid the reputation of the religion has been tarnished beyond repair with so many people advocating discrimination in the name of the bible and Christianity. It's sad.

[KurtAZ]

Originally Posted by DetroitN8V

Agreed. I've said this before but, it's a shame because when I was growing up Christianity was all about love and helping others. Being a Christian meant you put others before you and belittling someone else was the last thing one would do. I'm afraid the reputation of the religion has been tarnished beyond repair with so many people advocating discrimination in the name of the bible and Christianity. It's sad.

True...and if people abided by the true teachings of Christianity we probably wouldn't need a lot of the laws we have or a Welfare program. But that goes off topic...sorry Observer