Voting soon, what do you think of Prop 300 in AZ? (school, cost of)

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Bossanovawitcha

BTW - illegal immigrants do not have rights in this country beyond basic, human rights. They do not have rights afforded to US citizens. That is the point of citizenship. ! ! ..

I have no problem with 'human rights' issues such as setting up water stations in the desert. However, that is short-sighted and does not fix the problem. We should go one step further - control the border sufficiently so that people do not haphazardly attempt to cross the dangerous desert and enter this country illegally. They only attempt this journey because it has a very high success rate.

And the problem is that it will continue to have a high success rate because we have allowed it to become a well established system. It is now sufficiently large and sufficiently well run that it cannot be stopped without major adjustments to our society.

The only effective methods I can think of would be a marshall plan type activity in rural Mexico to make it more desirable for the Mexican demographic involved to stay home.

Even building a secure border with the military would cost billions and billions and take most of twenty years. Before that we will have exhausted the major groups of illegals from Mexico.

We are paying for mistakes made in the late 80s and early 90s. There is no plausible fix at this point.

Our choices are absorb the illegals and the hispanics...or revise our society to a much more structed one. National ID cards and cash control would do it. Do you know any politicians willing to propose that?

[migrants have rights]

Originally Posted by Nea1

"A new Center for Immigration Studies report was released in August, 2004 that shows that illegal immigration cost $10 billion in 2002.4 Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion."

We pay federally as well as state losses, there is NO excuse for being here illegally, citizens that commit crimes are punished, why should the illegals be any different? they want our rights, well those are some of them, to be prosecuted for your crimes!! Getting a fake Social Security card is fraud, a big crime, so is no drivers license and car insurance a well as many others. They cost us alot no matter how you try to spin it.

i doubt that is true.
you obviously did not read my link about migrants contributing to the economy.

punishing the migrants is not the issue.

the issue is the U.S. neo-liberal model that is forcing people to migrate

[migrants have rights]

Originally Posted by Bossanovawitcha

BTW - illegal immigrants do not have rights in this country beyond basic, human rights. They do not have rights afforded to US citizens. That is the point of citizenship. ! ! ..

I have no problem with 'human rights' issues such as setting up water stations in the desert. However, that is short-sighted and does not fix the problem. We should go one step further - control the border sufficiently so that people do not haphazardly attempt to cross the dangerous desert and enter this country illegally. They only attempt this journey because it has a very high success rate.

riiight

because i am sure the mayflower went through customs when it arrived in the "U.S."

they only attempt the journey because the u.s. gov't builds fences forcing more deaths in the desert.
they are crossing due to the U.S. neoliberal model that has failed for the most part in Latin America and Asia, and the rest of the world

[Bossanovawitcha]

Its US economic policy is treating people so badly, so why bother continuing to come over illegally?

Sounds like you should hook up with Hugo Chavez. Venezuela is nice this time of year. Viva la revolucion.

[Bossanovawitcha]

Originally Posted by olecapt

And the problem is that it will continue to have a high success rate because we have allowed it to become a well established system. It is now sufficiently large and sufficiently well run that it cannot be stopped without major adjustments to our society.

The only effective methods I can think of would be a marshall plan type activity in rural Mexico to make it more desirable for the Mexican demographic involved to stay home.

Even building a secure border with the military would cost billions and billions and take most of twenty years. Before that we will have exhausted the major groups of illegals from Mexico.

We are paying for mistakes made in the late 80s and early 90s. There is no plausible fix at this point.

Our choices are absorb the illegals and the hispanics...or revise our society to a much more structed one. National ID cards and cash control would do it. Do you know any politicians willing to propose that?

This would at least be something.

Lost in all of this is that we have a trade deficit now with Mexico (4.8 billion and climbing). Thats how sad a shape our economy is in these days. In a hundred years, maybe we'll be the border jumpers.

[Nea1]

Originally Posted by migrants have rights

i doubt that is true.
you obviously did not read my link about migrants contributing to the economy.

punishing the migrants is not the issue.

the issue is the U.S. neo-liberal model that is forcing people to migrate

Sorry it is true, federal study, deal with the the fact they hurt us more than help. yes punishing anyone that breaks the law is the way to go, includiong those that hire them.

[freeopinions]

Originally Posted by migrants have rights

they are crossing due to the U.S. neoliberal model that has failed for the most part in Latin America and Asia, and the rest of the world

For those of us not so politically astute, could you briefly explain the "neoliberal model that has failed for the most part in Latin America and Asia, and the rest of the world?"

[migrants have rights]

Originally Posted by Bossanovawitcha

Its US economic policy is treating people so badly, so why bother continuing to come over illegally?

Sounds like you should hook up with Hugo Chavez. Venezuela is nice this time of year. Viva la revolucion.

Venezuela’s Presidential Elections: Will the Opposition Accept the Results?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1894

[migrants have rights]

Originally Posted by freeopinions

For those of us not so politically astute, could you briefly explain the "neoliberal model that has failed for the most part in Latin America and Asia, and the rest of the world?"

1997 asian tiger

2001 argentina economy

bolivia privatization of water

NAFTA

www.wikipedia.org

just browse those areas

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Nea1

Sorry it is true, federal study, deal with the the fact they hurt us more than help. yes punishing anyone that breaks the law is the way to go, includiong those that hire them.

I follow the area pretty closely and am aware of no federal evaluation good or bad. There is a CIS study that suggests a bad outcome at the federal level...though the swing item is the education of US citizen children born of illegal alien parents.

There is a position paper by 500 leading economists including just about everybody that says immigration in total...legal and illegal...is good for the US.

There are some scholarly works that suggest illegals rescued California from a disaster do to the collapse of the manufacturing sector.

But I know of no federal report either way.

The question is complex. I doubt the answer is knowable to a certainty.

There is no doubt however that border states such as CA take a beating. I would suggest however that is more a problem with the feds keeping the good part while letting the border states eat the bad.