Voting soon, what do you think of Prop 300 in AZ? (Mesa: transplants, credit) - Arizona - City-Data Forum

Nea1 · 10-24-2006, 08:29 AM

Prop. 300, one of 19 ballot initiatives this year, calls for an end to taxpayer subsidies for education and child-care services for undocumented immigrants and non-citizens. Arizona students who are not Americans would have to pay out-of-state fees to attend public colleges here, if the measure passes.

What do you think?

Ponderosa · 10-24-2006, 09:49 AM

I've got mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand I say they are illegal, they should pay and/or be deported. But then I consider all the transplants from the rest of the US that have been in AZ and have paid taxes for all of 6 months and send their kids to AZ universities on my nickel. Many of these foreign kids have been here most of their lives and their parents have paid taxes (sales if nothing else) that support our schools for a lot longer than the transplants. Also, we NEED college educated people in this country and this state. The kids are Americans in every way but having papers. After they graduate, they will pay far more in taxes and contribution to Arizona than their education cost - like the GI Bill grads. They are not going to go back to Saudi Arabia or somewhere like foreign students or event another state like the out-of-state students probably will. So I haven't decided yet, but leaning NO.

Nea1 · 10-24-2006, 10:08 AM

When my son went to college this year we had only been in AZ two months, so length of stay isnt important he just had to have AZ ID and proof of address. Me, I dont really want to deny kids their education, but I am not sure we should pay for it. Their parents should, or become legal and pay your taxes, if we say yes to this wont we have to say yes to other programs for illegals? I dont know I am on the fence on this one. The people that support this have made some valid points, the ones against just say it isnt fair, why isnt it fair? Need more info.

But I will say yes to prop. 100 and 102

Ponderosa · 10-24-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nea1

When my son went to college this year we had only been in AZ two months, so length of stay isnt important he just had to have AZ ID and proof of address. Me, I dont really want to deny kids their education, but I am not sure we should pay for it. Their parents should, or become legal and pay your taxes, if we say yes to this wont we have to say yes to other programs for illegals? I dont know I am on the fence on this one. The people that support this have made some valid points, the ones against just say it isnt fair, why isnt it fair? Need more info.

I guess my point is that their parents did pay taxes - and not to be disrepectful, but a lot more than you did - for our Arizona schools. I've seen the kids on TV and these are not children of people who walked across last week. If their parents held jobs, they paid withholding and state income taxes. They certainly paid their 8% or so on everything they bought. I think the argument that we are paying for them is a little lame - particularly in light of what you say about being just needing an ID to get in-state tuition. Sounds like illegals are paying for transplants that just moved in last week! My issue is whether the illegal status ought to have some penalty associated with it. What is the incentive to be legal?

Nea1 · 10-24-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

I guess my point is that their parents did pay taxes - and not to be disrepectful, but a lot more than you did - for our Arizona schools. I've seen the kids on TV and these are not children of people who walked across last week. If their parents held jobs, they paid withholding and state income taxes. They certainly paid their 8% or so on everything they bought. I think the argument that we are paying for them is a little lame - particularly in light of what you say about being just needing an ID to get in-state tuition. Sounds like illegals are paying for transplants that just moved in last week! My issue is whether the illegal status ought to have some penalty associated with it. What is the incentive to be legal?

"Ummm. where did you get that AZ taxpayers are paying my sons tuition? He was denied.I am helping him with the bill and he has a full time job as well If we can why cant they?. I just said that is what they asked him to prove he is a legal resident which we were, I dont see how the illegals pay taxes, they need Social Security number for that and I thought you had to be a citizen to get one, at least my husband did, alot are paid under the table and most send alot of money to mexico, money they do not contribute here, oh besides buying groceries and clothing. We keep giving and giving at what point do we say no more?

I found this in an article:

"Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fake social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents).Some bargain, eh?"

Nea1 · 10-24-2006, 11:15 AM

Okay, what are some other ones that are important, I am new to AZ I have been researching some but want to get views from those that have lived here awhile, what is important here?

humble101 · 10-24-2006, 01:17 PM

The guy who built a house in the back next door has a construction company. He has illegals staying in the house up front. How do I know? I think anyone that asks the question how do you know they are illegal are really naive.
But all I have to do is call the Mesa Police or ICE or Governor Neapolitan(soft on everything) and they wouldn't be able to get here fast enough. LOL. As far as Proposition 300 get their act together as far as legality and then discern whether or not they are eligible. You start splitting hairs on how long they worked and any other reasons to disminish their illegality and you get nowhere. Just like we are now. Going nowhere because people want to apply all sorts of reasons of time worked, how long in the Country even when illegal, and everything else to make them sound legit. NO WAY!

Steve97415 · 10-24-2006, 03:06 PM

Reciprocity is an issue here. When U.S. students attend Mexican universities, do they pay the same fee schedule as Mexican nationals or is there a noncitizen fee added to the tuition costs?*

In reality, though, many ballot measures that have popular support and get passed, end up having constitutionality problems and will not stand up after judicial review. I haven't read the language of Prop 300, but is sounds like it's trying to reverse the ruling on 14th amendment protection for the children of undocumented workers that was handed down by the Supreme Court in Plyler vs. Doe, 1982. In most cases, you can't really defeat a federal SC ruling with a state ballot measure. A constitutional amendment is required.

*U.S. students frequently attend medical and dental schools in Mexico if they don't get accepted in the U.S.

humble101 · 10-24-2006, 03:18 PM

My friend, for reasons I can't comprehend(cheap living) went to Mexico. She bought a little place down in one of the towns that the Mexican Government was going to demolish but they fixed it up to accommodate "other" Americans who somehow think they want to be there.
When she went to establish her permanent visa to come back here she was told for about two weeks(Minyana, Minyana). She has a trailer that when she wants to bring it across the border there is a $200 fee. Now I don't know about anyone else but I could care less about the plight of other Countries when they treat us that way.
I am tired of the attitude by so many that "turn the other cheek" is appropriate because we are America. I wish America would reciprocate with hard core attitudes and rules to protect our sovereignty like other Countries hassle America. Yes, my friend may have got what she deserved but "How about turnaround with a little fair play" from other countries for a change?
You can deny it all you want Ruelas and Montini, but very few Countries ever apopreciate our good will and it is absolutely, simply unfair to the Nth degree.

Nea1 · 10-24-2006, 03:19 PM

It isnt saying they cannot attend, they just will not be able to get state grants and funding. I looked into some Universities in mexico, I couldnt find any funding help, all wanted payment upfront from Americans attending which even they say is a very small amount, as well as proof of Id and birth certificate, then you had to pass several exams.