U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Arizona
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-19-2015, 05:58 PM
 
1,304 posts, read 1,092,071 times
Reputation: 1471

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy6879 View Post
Bottom line - teachers in AZ do not get paid enough. I didn't get my teaching license transferred here when we moved because the pay is abysmal and the support is non-existent. There is zero incentive for someone who needs an income to teach in AZ. Let's start by improving teacher salaries - and yes, that would mean more money.
Yep we had a friend stop teaching after her first year because she had a baby and it wouldn't be financially worth it with daycare costs. I couldn't believe how little it was. Not only is the pay low but then you have the non English speakers taking up much time and resources due to not even being able to read let alone understand what is being taught, while usually having governmental support. Then of course parents are placing kids in private schools which further declines the public school system. It's a sad situation for AZ education. Maybe if the schools were better More people would consider moving there or in our case staying there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-19-2015, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,577,067 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
My mom taught at an inner city school in Texas for 4 years. It took more out if her than her cushy suburban school, but she never felt like a babysitter and had many students willing to learn.
Not sure when your mom taught school but many inner cities schools have changed a great deal, many of them in the recent past. Also not sure if your mom taught at the middle/high school level where much of the real bad stuff occurs. My wife went to an inner city school in NY state back in the 80's. Today it's 200x worse. Scary worse. Police posted outside when school gets let out worse. Metal detectors for weapons/guns upon entering the school worse. You get the picture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
Part of the problem with inner city/poor children, is that their parents are usually working a lot. Sometimes two jobs a piece just to get by. It's not that they don't want to be more involved with their kids, they just can't because they have to work so much to get to pay their bills and survive.
Great point. Selfish/uninvolved parents who can't support their kids financially or emotionally are the biggest part of the problem in kids performing poorly in school in my view. Parents that can't make ends meet yet have kids are very selfish "parents" in my book. I come from the view that if parents are struggling that much financially and/or emotionally, they shouldn't selfishly bring kids into the picture. That's irresponsible behavior. Big time. But yes, it happens. Can't fix selfishness, even with birth control available and an adult decides against using it. I think we can agree on that small point anyways?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
No one, not even I said that money is the answer to all the problems, but it does matter. It has to be spent properly, but there does have to be money to spend. Books, food, computers and teachers just don't appear out of thin air
Agree.

However, in one of your posts, you posted this thought/a pro funding article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post

Money is not the end-all be-all solution, but it DOES matter and it DOES make a difference

Does Money Matter in Education? | Shanker Institute
I agree it's not an end all be all solution as you say, but spending doesn't seem to matter in regards to outcome in that 40yr study I posted a few posts up by a non-partisan group.

No matter how much money states spend on education, results stay same | Daily Mail Online

The highlights of the study (low-lights really in my view):

"The performance of 17-year-olds has been essentially stagnant across all subjects despite a near tripling of the inflation-adjusted cost of putting a child through the K-12 system.

There has been essentially no correlation between what states have spent on education and their measured academic outcomes"



And that's a 40 year study(!). Quite a horrible ROI, yes? And looking beyond AZ and at our country as a whole, this is what our big spending $ on education is buying us on the world stage:

U.S. Education Slips In Rankings - CBS News

"Given what the United States spends on education, its relatively low student achievement through high school shows its school system is "clearly inefficient," McGaw said."

But hey, all we need is a few more dollars on this/that/the other thing and we'll be ok.....I know, I know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
Compare this map of spending per pupil by state to the state rankings for schools. The better schools are spending more money per kid (note I did not say the MOST), while the lower ranking schools are spending much less per kid.
But there's no correlation between money spent/outcome. Even the article you posted says this:

Here’s how much each state spends on public school students - The Washington Post

"In addition, as Emily notes in her post, spending alone doesn’t determine the quality of education. There are a wide variety of factors that can determine this, and funding — while important in terms of resources, technology, various supplies and staff size — is just one part of that. Still, underfunded districts face particular challenges, as Valerie Strauss’s post from earlier in the week explains. "

"Challenges", not poorer performance necessarily. Otherwise, every school district in AZ would be a poor performing district if that were true. Look at some of our suburban districts. There exists many excellent public schools, including where I live in Goodyear(Estrella). And remember AZ has some unique challenges....large population of non-English speaking students, Native American enrollment which statistics show perform poorly in school which drag down our results.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
School districts are cutting down to four day school weeks to save money! How does that not hurt the children??

Apache Junction school district going to 4-day week
Personally I don't agree with this either but it's a nationwide trend that is not just an AZ thing. And it's been happening for years now in other states, way before AZ.

The 4-Day School Week: A Work in Progress - US News



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
And your talk of supply and demand is sickening! Rather than pass school funding legislation NOW, you would prefer to let the kids suffer until the state gets to the breaking point and is FORCED to spend more money. How many years will that take? How many thousands of students will graduate lacking the skills to get through college and find that good job?? Arizona's economy will also suffer because of this. The former CEO of Intel and many other companies, regret building a facility here, because of the lack of skilled workers. This is a serious matter and it affects the entire state.

Former Intel CEO: Quality of Arizona education too poor to attract new business - Arizona - EVTNow
Well, it may be sickening, but it's reality. There are many things in life that are handled in the world that I don't like but it doesn't mean we shouldn't address the reality of a situation and acknowledge the way things often work. Being idealistic is often 180 degrees from reality. If you can change the whole thing with a magic wand, more power to you. Just don't shoot the messenger(me!) The study above states what we spend on education has gone up 3x the rate of inflation yet we have nothing more to show for it. Do you think spending more (pick your magic number and category...teachers, books, computers, etc) will really make it better? I call Albert Einstein's quote into the picture on this one:

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”


There's poor education in many countries but if companies can make good $ in said location, they will set up shop. And attract talent from elsewhere if it makes sense for the bottom line. Don't forget AZ doesn't operate in a vacuum. Talent is attracted nationwide and worldwide. Most people who live in AZ aren't from AZ. It's a melting pot from other states. And I bet if you looked at who works at the Intel plant in Chandler, most aren't native AZ's and more than a few aren't native born American's. For business, it's all about $/the bottom line. The rest is noise/scripted reality. And don't forget we have some very well respected large colleges in the area that turn out lots of graduates. And again, many come in from other states and some stick around to take jobs here. Not that it's the answer to a poor performing education system in k-12, but just to show again education/where people ultimately live aren't necessarily a product of the local school system as things don't operate in a vacuum.

In the end, we have different views on the topic but I think we want the same result. So I think we can agree on that? Unfortunately, I think our problem is a deeper society issue that is caused by irresponsible parent(s) largely who aren't being active parents as a whole and don't put their kids 1st. And it's getting worse. There are of course many good parents out there but unfortunately there's a growing number of "parents" who aren't and are thinking about themselves more than their kids/being responsible for them. And there's no fix for this in a free society. I think that's the sad reality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2015, 11:10 PM
 
301 posts, read 455,173 times
Reputation: 516
I retired from both the military and then as a teacher /coach. My son taught for 15 years and quit last year. He was one of the top English grammar teachers in 3 districts but no raise for 7 years. At Buena H S two years in a row the Teacher of the year called it quits and went to work for the Army at Ft. Huachuca. When teachers don't have even basic equipment for their classes and there is no discipline in the classroom the job becomes worthless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2015, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Arizona
1,599 posts, read 1,270,657 times
Reputation: 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Not sure when your mom taught school but many inner cities schools have changed a great deal, many of them in the recent past. Also not sure if your mom taught at the middle/high school level where much of the real bad stuff occurs. My wife went to an inner city school in NY state back in the 80's. Today it's 200x worse. Scary worse. Police posted outside when school gets let out worse. Metal detectors for weapons/guns upon entering the school worse. You get the picture.
My mom taught at an inner city middle school in Fort Worth with metal detectors at the entrance. This was about 15 years ago. Her students were mostly Latino. There were bad/troubled kids who didn't care about coming to school, but there were many that knew because of where they are coming from, they would have to work extra hard to get out. Those were the ones she worked for the most. She wanted to make change and she did. She only quit because the commute was getting to be too much for her and my dad was getting close to retirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Great point. Selfish/uninvolved parents who can't support their kids financially or emotionally are the biggest part of the problem in kids performing poorly in school in my view. Parents that can't make ends meet yet have kids are very selfish "parents" in my book. I come from the view that if parents are struggling that much financially and/or emotionally, they shouldn't selfishly bring kids into the picture. That's irresponsible behavior. Big time. But yes, it happens. Can't fix selfishness, even with birth control available and an adult decides against using it. I think we can agree on that small point anyways?
Well, aren't you full of empathy and compassion . Having a child and working yourself to the bone to make sure they have food, shelter, clothes and GO to school every day is not shelfish. People aren't going around popping out kids willy nilly like people like you want to believe. There are those rare cases, but most people act as responsibly as they can. Birth control fails. There are approximately 160 million women using birth control. At it's MOST effective with a fail rate of 1%, 1.6 million women WILL get pregnant will using birth control. For people who can't afford prescription birth control and use condoms the fail rate is 18%.

There are also cases in which the family had stable income, but a parent dies, they get divorced, someone gets laid off, someone gets sick or becomes disabled or a million other circumstances in which the family finances are unexpectedly challenged. Are those people selfish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Agree.

However, in one of your posts, you posted this thought/a pro funding article
It is pro funding. How are you going to get books without money? How are you going to get computers without money? How are you going to pay teachers without money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
I agree it's not an end all be all solution as you say, but spending doesn't seem to matter in regards to outcome in that 40yr study I posted a few posts up by a non-partisan group.

No matter how much money states spend on education, results stay same | Daily Mail Online

The highlights of the study (low-lights really in my view):

"The performance of 17-year-olds has been essentially stagnant across all subjects despite a near tripling of the inflation-adjusted cost of putting a child through the K-12 system.

There has been essentially no correlation between what states have spent on education and their measured academic outcomes"



And that's a 40 year study(!). Quite a horrible ROI, yes? And looking beyond AZ and at our country as a whole, this is what our big spending $ on education is buying us on the world stage:

U.S. Education Slips In Rankings - CBS News

"Given what the United States spends on education, its relatively low student achievement through high school shows its school system is "clearly inefficient," McGaw said."

But hey, all we need is a few more dollars on this/that/the other thing and we'll be ok.....I know, I know.
If there is 0 correlation, then why are the majority of the states that do best spend more and the majority of the ones doing bad, spend much less? Complete and total coincidence I guess...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
But there's no correlation between money spent/outcome. Even the article you posted says this:

Here’s how much each state spends on public school students - The Washington Post

"In addition, as Emily notes in her post, spending alone doesn’t determine the quality of education. There are a wide variety of factors that can determine this, and funding — while important in terms of resources, technology, various supplies and staff size — is just one part of that. Still, underfunded districts face particular challenges, as Valerie Strauss’s post from earlier in the week explains. "

"Challenges", not poorer performance necessarily. Otherwise, every school district in AZ would be a poor performing district if that were true. Look at some of our suburban districts. There exists many excellent public schools, including where I live in Goodyear(Estrella). And remember AZ has some unique challenges....large population of non-English speaking students, Native American enrollment which statistics show perform poorly in school which drag down our results.
I know what the article says and I have stated more than once that money is not the only singular solution, but major problem for Arizona, the original point/topic of this thread is lack of teachers. Teachers are QUITTING and LEAVING the state because they can not AFFORD to be a teacher. They can not live on their salaries. This is ONE factor that CAN easily be solved with more funding. Pay the teachers enough to live near their school comfortably and they will stick around and do their job.

Texas has a lot of non English speaking students as well. My mom had to be ESL certified to teach at the inner city school. Texas ranks higher than Arizona, in about the middle, so I don't buy this excuse. Native Americans have been part of Arizona forever, so I don't buy this excuse either. They could very easily set up programs for them to improve their education as well (hey guess what, programs cost money).

And no sorry. The suburban school districts here look good when compared to the inner city and lowest preforming schools here, but compare them to the top schools, or even lower ranked schools in top preforming states and you'll see the curriculum in AZ just isn't there. My friend moved here from the Midwestern high preforming state to Tempe while in high school about 6 years ago. She was flabbergasted at the curriculum and BORED out of her mind. The Validictorian of her graduating class wouldn't even be on the honor roll of her Midwestern school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Personally I don't agree with this either but it's a nationwide trend that is not just an AZ thing. And it's been happening for years now in other states, way before AZ.

The 4-Day School Week: A Work in Progress - US News
If it's been happening for years, we should have taken the steps to prevent it from happening here. Just because it happens elsewhere does not excuse it. This can also be easily solved with more funding. The schools are cutting out the fifth day to reduce utility bills, food costs, and hourly workers pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Well, it may be sickening, but it's reality. There are many things in life that are handled in the world that I don't like but it doesn't mean we shouldn't address the reality of a situation and acknowledge the way things often work. Being idealistic is often 180 degrees from reality. If you can change the whole thing with a magic wand, more power to you. Just don't shoot the messenger(me!) The study above states what we spend on education has gone up 3x the rate of inflation yet we have nothing more to show for it. Do you think spending more (pick your magic number and category...teachers, books, computers, etc) will really make it better? I call Albert Einstein's quote into the picture on this one:

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”


There's poor education in many countries but if companies can make good $ in said location, they will set up shop. And attract talent from elsewhere if it makes sense for the bottom line. Don't forget AZ doesn't operate in a vacuum. Talent is attracted nationwide and worldwide. Most people who live in AZ aren't from AZ. It's a melting pot from other states. And I bet if you looked at who works at the Intel plant in Chandler, most aren't native AZ's and more than a few aren't native born American's. For business, it's all about $/the bottom line. The rest is noise/scripted reality. And don't forget we have some very well respected large colleges in the area that turn out lots of graduates. And again, many come in from other states and some stick around to take jobs here. Not that it's the answer to a poor performing education system in k-12, but just to show again education/where people ultimately live aren't necessarily a product of the local school system as things don't operate in a vacuum.

In the end, we have different views on the topic but I think we want the same result. So I think we can agree on that? Unfortunately, I think our problem is a deeper society issue that is caused by irresponsible parent(s) largely who aren't being active parents as a whole and don't put their kids 1st. And it's getting worse. There are of course many good parents out there but unfortunately there's a growing number of "parents" who aren't and are thinking about themselves more than their kids/being responsible for them. And there's no fix for this in a free society. I think that's the sad reality.
Your approach is lazy. Let it fall apart and then we'll fix it, who cares about the damage done along the way, as long as we don't lose our pennies!

Funny you bring up the insanity quote, because Arizona has been cutting funding and/or not investing in education for at least a decade and no improvements have been made and the ship is sinking faster now than ever. When is this "slashing of the funds" method going to work?

No, Arizona isn't in a vacuum, but tell me... Why would a graduate from say MIT, Harvard, Yale or other top preforming universities who obviously values a good education, hard work and achievement want to uproot their family and move them to a state that ranks at the bottom for education, does not value education and is doing nothing to fix it? Why would a company want to build a large facility somewhere where people are not qualified to work? Where they have to pay to move people in and risk them leaving if they become dissatisfied with their children's education? Makes 0 sense and big business is realizing this.

We are not waiting around. I will not subject my kids to these pitiful schools. We hope to be moved to Minnesota in the next 6-12 months. Minnesota is ranked number 8 in the nation and the governor is executing plans to expand and improve education there even more. When you ask people about schools there, most people will say it doesn't matter, because aside from a select few, they are all good. Definitely can not say that about Arizona.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-20-2015, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,577,067 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
Well, aren't you full of empathy and compassion . Having a child and working yourself to the bone to make sure they have food, shelter, clothes and GO to school every day is not shelfish.
Yes, I strongly believe having a child and not being prepared to emotionally and financially being able to handle the task as a parent is selfish. It happens all the time. Your non-sequitur logic that somehow that concept lacks empathy and compassion escapes me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
There are also cases in which the family had stable income, but a parent dies, they get divorced, someone gets laid off, someone gets sick or becomes disabled or a million other circumstances in which the family finances are unexpectedly challenged. Are those people selfish?
Different circumstance. I'm talking about people who are in low level jobs who can barely afford to take care of themselves, aren't emotionally ready, aren't stable, and make the decision to have kids because it works for them, the adult. A lot of that is going on regardless if you see it or not in your small circle of experiences.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
I know what the article says and I have stated more than once that money is not the only singular solution, but major problem for Arizona, the original point/topic of this thread is lack of teachers. Teachers are QUITTING and LEAVING the state because they can not AFFORD to be a teacher. They can not live on their salaries. This is ONE factor that CAN easily be solved with more funding. Pay the teachers enough to live near their school comfortably and they will stick around and do their job.
You can say this for any job. Why not pay a worker in Job A more money, Job B more money....isn't their job just as important in their own mind and shouldn't they get payed a decent wage no matter what they do? Heck, I felt my job was ultra important.....pay me more! Again, I deal in reality. Pay is what the market will bear. I know you don't like to hear that but that's reality in the free market. Fair that a basketball star gets 10's of millions of dollars as compared to a teacher salary? In the minds of many, no way is that fair. But that's what the market dictates in a capitalist society, regardless if you or I agree or think it's grossly unfair. Again, I deal in reality and realize I can't control many things in life that I don't like or think it's unfair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
And no sorry. The suburban school districts here look good when compared to the inner city and lowest preforming schools here, but compare them to the top schools, or even lower ranked schools in top preforming states and you'll see the curriculum in AZ just isn't there. My friend moved here from the Midwestern high preforming state to Tempe while in high school about 6 years ago. She was flabbergasted at the curriculum and BORED out of her mind. The Validictorian of her graduating class wouldn't even be on the honor roll of her Midwestern school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
Your approach is lazy. Let it fall apart and then we'll fix it, who cares about the damage done along the way, as long as we don't lose our pennies!
I think you misunderstand the points I'm making in regards to AZ teacher pay. I never stated I think any of my views are ideal. Far from it. Again, I just deal in the reality of a situation. It is stated in the article AZ doesn't pay its teachers enough and they are leaving in droves. I simply stated if nothing changes, either new teachers come in and take the place of the departing teachers and accept the pay or if they don't, the market will raise the price to get teachers as schools have a mandate to have teachers teaching the kids. This is reality. I wish it were different in the rose colored glass world but given what you admit is a low funding issue, why do you think all of a sudden AZ will change the amount they give schools? Logic dictates in all likelihood, they won't, based on past behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
No, Arizona isn't in a vacuum, but tell me... Why would a graduate from say MIT, Harvard, Yale or other top preforming universities who obviously values a good education, hard work and achievement want to uproot their family and move them to a state that ranks at the bottom for education, does not value education and is doing nothing to fix it? Why would a company want to build a large facility somewhere where people are not qualified to work? Where they have to pay to move people in and risk them leaving if they become dissatisfied with their children's education? Makes 0 sense and big business is realizing this.
I can't answer that but you might get answers from companies like Intel, the new State Farm regional office, the growing IT presence, the large top-rated medical jobs that exist here like the Mayo Clinic, etc. that have many high paying jobs/highly educated people that decided to move here with their families, set up shop here/are planning too.

Charter/private schools are an option here for those who want the best of the best. It might surprise you that 3 out of the top 10 high schools in the nation are right here in AZ, in the valley as a matter of fact, in the latest 2015 ratings of the USN best high school rankings:

Best High Schools Rankings | Top High Schools | US News

Unless I missed it, I looked up to the top 50 high schools on the list and didn't see one from MN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
We are not waiting around. I will not subject my kids to these pitiful schools. We hope to be moved to Minnesota in the next 6-12 months. Minnesota is ranked number 8 in the nation and the governor is executing plans to expand and improve education there even more. When you ask people about schools there, most people will say it doesn't matter, because aside from a select few, they are all good. Definitely can not say that about Arizona.
Now you're coming to my side of thinking. Given we can't change what's unchangeable, we take action on things we can change that works best for each of us in our own mind in a given situation. For you that's moving to a different environment that you think is better for your kids education. Bravo. I wish you and your family the best in MN.

Last edited by stevek64; 06-20-2015 at 02:49 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-20-2015, 10:25 PM
 
336 posts, read 191,532 times
Reputation: 858
Throwing money at education has been a failure. Parents are with their children 94% of the time. Teachers are a very low with actual time spent with kids.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-20-2015, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Nashville TN
4,925 posts, read 4,593,325 times
Reputation: 4778
Teachers don't make any money, I make more money in three months than a teacher makes all year in salary, at least they get their summers off, one of their best perks thou
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2015, 09:09 AM
 
37 posts, read 41,693 times
Reputation: 76
Teachers make a salary pretty consistent with others with Bachelors degree in a human services field. My wife is a social worker, works in a prison, and her salary is pretty even with teachers (although she does not get the time off so in some ways actually paid less) which is about the same with most humans service fields. A lot of this is simple supply and demand though.

Part of what happened is two fold:

1. when women entered the workplace en masse in the late 70's early 80's they greatly increased the supply of labor available for some professions more than others - teaching, social work, therapists, etc drew more women to their fields which increased supply, decreased demand, and lowered wages

2. There are a lot of teaching programs out there producing a great deal of supply also. The profession would be better off either increasing standards to increase demand.

Other professions do a pretty good job of self policing this way and keep salaries high - its why nurses (another female dominated profession) remain very well paid in relation to education - their programs have very high standards for admission (and graduation) and they keep tighter reigns on their "guild" numbers wise. In some ways its also a less desirable job (hours, body fluids, stress, etc) which may lead to less people willing to do the work, again less supply though
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2015, 09:32 AM
 
755 posts, read 505,355 times
Reputation: 1249
85k not enough in Phoenix?! It depends on what district you are teaching and how long you have been teaching. Teachers who coach two sports and getting paid on step 13 make 85k in Phoenix Union.

So a wife and hubby teaching couple could make 170k a year in Phoenix.

Teaching is awesome. You have to focus on the kids who do; celebrate your successes and do the best you can with the kids who are apathetic. You can't get frustrated with the lack of parental and community and state support of students; you have to rationalize it in order to function at a high level as a teacher.

I felt as though I have total autonomy in my classroom. It stinks that they use test scores to evaluate your effectiveness as a teacher, although it makes sense to a certain point. Is a coach better if he has better talent?

I am leaving education after teaching in AZ for 9 years, but it has nothing to do with the article.

I love/d teaching.............most of the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2015, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Washington State
15,367 posts, read 8,036,047 times
Reputation: 13172
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowdude222 View Post
Throwing money at education has been a failure. Parents are with their children 94% of the time. Teachers are a very low with actual time spent with kids.
There is very little correlation between money spent on education and academic performance...just look at DC for example. Intelligence and drive mostly are a product of your DNA so if you take an area where a large portion of the population is intelligent and successful, they will have a good school district performance and vice versa.

Given the high spending and poor overall academic performance of US students, I question if we are using our resources effectively and if we should shift some of our focus. In general, I support a level of spending and teacher pay that would maximize our education systems but eve more important is to take a strong look at the way we are educating to see if we can improve such as what are they doing in other countries to get better results with much less money.

As far as teacher pay, there is little difference between Washington and Arizona and given the higher cost of living in Washington, teachers will have a better economic condition in Arizona. However, Washington has a high level of academic performance by its students and Arizona, no so much. Arizona should look at what Washington is doing to see if they can improve but there's nothing you can do about the general population and average intelligence by state, it is what it is
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Arizona
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top