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Old 08-16-2008, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Northern Arizona
330 posts, read 821,693 times
Reputation: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
The Indian tribes squawk about any so called infringement on the San Francisco Peaks because they hold the mountains sacred. It's too bad they don't feel that way about their own reservation lands. The heart of many reservations are littered with dilapidated shacks for houses & storefronts, and many junk yards. The casinos and strip malls on the reservation entrances are the only somewhat attractive amenities ... which BTW, were not invented by the Indians!

Traeat the American Indians with respect??? Fine. Maybe more people would if they showed a little dignity toward themselves and others. Being respectful doesn't mean taking handouts from the government, and then holding a grudge against the "white man" for taking away their land. Being respectful doesn't mean sitting in coffee shops and sneering at visitors. Respect has to be EARNED.
Wow, look who really has a chip on his shoulder.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
9 posts, read 15,253 times
Reputation: 19
Valley Native, your attitude saddens me. Would you like it if someone sprayed effluent on something sacred to your beliefs? And as for holding a grudge because the white man took their lands, can you not just put yourself in their place, even for a minute, and imagine what that must be like? How would you react if the government, or other people, decided they wanted your house and land and forcibly took it and made you to move to another part of the country? I'm guessing you would not comply happily. To accuse American Indians of having a chip on their shoulder conveniently puts the blame back on them, and is just an easy way for some people to avoid having to seriously address the problems and issues.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Baja Arizona
2,916 posts, read 5,012,186 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
The Indian tribes squawk about any so called infringement on the San Francisco Peaks because they hold the mountains sacred. It's too bad they don't feel that way about their own reservation lands. The heart of many reservations are littered with dilapidated shacks for houses & storefronts, and many junk yards. The casinos and strip malls on the reservation entrances are the only somewhat attractive amenities ... which BTW, were not invented by the Indians!

Traeat the American Indians with respect??? Fine. Maybe more people would if they showed a little dignity toward themselves and others. Being respectful doesn't mean taking handouts from the government, and then holding a grudge against the "white man" for taking away their land. Being respectful doesn't mean sitting in coffee shops and sneering at visitors. Respect has to be EARNED.

I'd love to hear the perspective as comes from the mouths of Native Americans, instead of all of this "justification" from non-Native -Americans.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Baja Arizona
2,916 posts, read 5,012,186 times
Reputation: 1078
Per Valley Native: "Respect has to be EARNED."

Conversely, do you expect a people whose land and life was ripped away from them (as well as having had so many other numerous atrocities done to them) to respect the people who were responsible for taking it away?

When was THAT respect earned?
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:45 AM
 
751 posts, read 1,087,904 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZonyPony View Post
Per Valley Native: "Respect has to be EARNED."

Conversely, do you expect a people whose land and life was ripped away from them (as well as having had so many other numerous atrocities done to them) to respect the people who were responsible for taking it away?

When was THAT respect earned?
That was a long time ago....when are folks going to let bygones be bygones and just let it all go.
I didnt take the land from the native americans and todays indians didnt lose it, so why dont we just let it go and live our lives.

I am so sick and tired of the blame game that folks are always throwing around.
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:42 PM
Status: "NIMBYs be gone!!!" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
3,482 posts, read 4,479,701 times
Reputation: 3150
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZonyPony View Post
Per Valley Native: "Respect has to be EARNED."

Conversely, do you expect a people whose land and life was ripped away from them (as well as having had so many other numerous atrocities done to them) to respect the people who were responsible for taking it away?

When was THAT respect earned?
I wasn't responsible for taking their land away. None of us who are alive today were ever part of the so called intrusion. Just the same, I didn't force black people over here against their will to be used as slaves. All of those horrendous operations occurred CENTURIES ago. The U.S. has more than made up for those mistakes. We give American Indians lots of freebies, and the blacks are treated as equal (if not superior in some cases) to the white people.

At the same time, consider what this land would be if it had been left alone. More than likely, the U.S. would resemble the core of many Indian reservations: dumpy, dirty, shacky, and impoverished. The settlers, along with many generations that followed, helped create the most prosperous nation in the world. The Indians have the "evil white man" to thank for better opportunities. But how many Indians take advantage of those opportunities? Judging by their lazy work ethic and impoverished conditions, I'd say very few do.

In any case, the original topic was about artificial snow at the Snow Bowl. The San Francisco Peaks are not on any tribal lands. The Snow Bowl is a business that has a right to do what it takes to increase profits. Eight out of the past ten winters have been unusually dry and lacking in snow. The ski resorts have lost money because of it. Not allowing them to make snow during drought conditions only hurts their business. The involvement of the justice system over this private matter was a complete waste of time.
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Baja Arizona
2,916 posts, read 5,012,186 times
Reputation: 1078
Regarding Snowbowl: Typical responses, yet understandable.

Regarding Native Americans: Typical responses.
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Old 08-23-2008, 12:02 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,542 times
Reputation: 12
I think the ignorance in some of these posts is quite humiliating as a member of both the native and white population.
In responce to "The Indian tribes squawk about any so called infringement on the San Francisco Peaks because they hold the mountains sacred. It's too bad they don't feel that way about their own reservation lands. The heart of many reservations are littered with dilapidated shacks for houses & storefronts, and many junk yards. The casinos and strip malls on the reservation entrances are the only somewhat attractive amenities ..."
SINCE you obviously are close to completely ignorant to the native culture- the reason that native reservations are not kept "pretty" (to typical city standards) is because native beliefs go against building upon the land or adding unnatural elements such and paint and plastic. So although they may not be attractive to the white culture- they are more than respected by the natives. The native culture believes very strongly in keeping the land as it is and living off of what it provides.

To whomever asked to hear the side of a native as apposed to a non- There it is

The whole debate- in my eyes, as a member of both cultures- really comes down to cultural differences. All of these assumptions about who is thinking what and who's holding a grudge are just silly. We're just from different worlds and it's a shame that we can't all think outside of our little boxes and experience the beauty of other ways more openly.
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Baja Arizona
2,916 posts, read 5,012,186 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKDONN View Post
I think the ignorance in some of these posts is quite humiliating as a member of both the native and white population.
In responce to "The Indian tribes squawk about any so called infringement on the San Francisco Peaks because they hold the mountains sacred. It's too bad they don't feel that way about their own reservation lands. The heart of many reservations are littered with dilapidated shacks for houses & storefronts, and many junk yards. The casinos and strip malls on the reservation entrances are the only somewhat attractive amenities ..."
SINCE you obviously are close to completely ignorant to the native culture- the reason that native reservations are not kept "pretty" (to typical city standards) is because native beliefs go against building upon the land or adding unnatural elements such and paint and plastic. So although they may not be attractive to the white culture- they are more than respected by the natives. The native culture believes very strongly in keeping the land as it is and living off of what it provides.

To whomever asked to hear the side of a native as apposed to a non- There it is

The whole debate- in my eyes, as a member of both cultures- really comes down to cultural differences. All of these assumptions about who is thinking what and who's holding a grudge are just silly. We're just from different worlds and it's a shame that we can't all think outside of our little boxes and experience the beauty of other ways more openly.

Thanx, SKDONN. There is much ignorance on the "non" side of the fence, for sure. You shouldn't have to respond to any of the ridiculous commentary above, unless you choose to. However, whatever light you can shed on this subject would be great.
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Old 08-26-2008, 12:32 AM
 
Location: Arizona
118 posts, read 349,106 times
Reputation: 50
I admit to being ignorant of the religious Natve Americans' religous beliefes and how they are impacted by the mountain but all in all it seems like having a reliable ski area in this part of the state is a wonderful healthy attraction to residents and tourists alike. There are many that would come and enjoy reasonable ski conditions and explore the beauty of nature not just a few. BTW, I am guessing all the tacky tin Indian casinos lined up from California to Albuqueque were built on land that was sacred to someone.
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