Ninth Circuit Court approves snow making at Snow Bowl (Flagstaff: environment, trip)

[Valley Native]

Snowmaking OK'd at Snowbowl resort

This decision overturns a 2007 ruling that prohibited the use of artificial snow. Good news for the Snow Bowl! Of course, the Indian tribes and environmentalists are raising a fuss ... which is what led to this whole controversy in the first place.

Hopefully, the court's decision will put a halt to any further lawsuits, protests, or controversy over this matter. The Snow Bowl is a private business, and the owners have a right to do whatever they want in order to improve their business. The Indian tribes have no ownership rights, and the resort doesn't sit on reservation land ... so all this babble about the mountain being "sacred" to their religious beliefs is a load of crap. Same goes for the eco nuts. They don't own the land, so they (along with the Indians) should simply butt out. We could sure use a lot less of their whining!

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Snowmaking OK'd at Snowbowl resort

This decision overturns a 2007 ruling that prohibited the use of artificial snow. Good news for the Snow Bowl! Of course, the Indian tribes and environmentalists are raising a fuss ... which is what led to this whole controversy in the first place.

Hopefully, the court's decision will put a halt to any further lawsuits, protests, or controversy over this matter. The Snow Bowl is a private business, and the owners have a right to do whatever they want in order to improve their business. The Indian tribes have no ownership rights, and the resort doesn't sit on reservation land ... so all this babble about the mountain being "sacred" to their religious beliefs is a load of crap. Same goes for the eco nuts. They don't own the land, so they (along with the Indians) should simply butt out. We could sure use a lot less of their whining!

I support the decision, but let's be clear. The land does not belong to AZ Snowbowl either. It is National Forest land and belongs to ALL of us. Also the issue was not the use of artificial snowmaking, it was the use of reclaimed water (treated effluent) in the snowmaking. The tribes claim that the human waste in the water desecrates ancestral sacred places. Personally, I think that argument is absurd and it has more to do with the tribes opposing any improvement that might take away business from Sunrise Ski area. But that's just my opinion.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

The tribes claim that the human waste in the water desecrates ancestral sacred places. Personally, I think that argument is absurd and it has more to do with the tribes opposing any improvement that might take away business from Sunrise Ski area. But that's just my opinion.

That's a good point about possibly taking business away from Sunrise. But that's the free market & competition at work. However, I really doubt if the Indian tribes that raised such a fuss over Snowbowl really gave much thought to Sunrise. They're simply opposed to any kind of progress associated with the "evil white man".

Generally speaking, Indians still have a big chip on their shoulders over our intrusion of "their" land. If you have ever been to towns that have a high Indian population, their bitterness toward visitors is pretty obvious. Other than the casinos, reservation lands are littered with ramshackle houses, and most of the people live in impoverished conditions. They apparently have no desire to improve their life, and it shows in their lazy, bitter attitudes. They get lots of freebies from the government, so they really have no business being so cold toward us.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

That's a good point about possibly taking business away from Sunrise. But that's the free market & competition at work. However, I really doubt if the Indian tribes that raised such a fuss over Snowbowl really gave much thought to Sunrise. They're simply opposed to any kind of progress associated with the "evil white man".

Generally speaking, Indians still have a big chip on their shoulders over our intrusion of "their" land. If you have ever been to towns that have a high Indian population, their bitterness toward visitors is pretty obvious. Other than the casinos, reservation lands are littered with ramshackle houses, and most of the people live in impoverished conditions. They apparently have no desire to improve their life, and it shows in their lazy, bitter attitudes. They get lots of freebies from the government, so they really have no business being so cold toward us.

My first job after college involved spending many, many days working with Navajo and Hopi people in N Az and NM. I found the Hopi to be relatively friendly, interesting, intelligent and artistic. I never did figure out how the Navajo are "wired", but, in my opinion, they valued being left alone more than just about anything. They never struck me as lazy and bitter, though. It just sometimes seemed they and I were from different planets. It was very frustrating trying to get things done at times. But I, while still a young Turk, learned that there are people on this earth who simply do not share our so-called Protestant work ethic and our relentless need for accumulation of possessions. It was an important life lession that served me throughout my career and I am grateful for having the opportunity to spend some time working with and learning from these people.

[AzDreamer]

I have spent many weekends up in those mountains and often saw small groups of Indians and their prayer sticks up there. Those mountains are most certainly sacred to them and I don't blame them for objecting to what may be seen as disrespectful. That said, I'm pretty sure they didn't hold their bladder for the whole trip up and down the mountain, maybe someone else knows more about that.

[Badland wonder]

The Navajo have 4 sacred peaks. The San Francisco peaks are the sacred ones of the west. They have been sacred to the Navajo long before Flagstaff was a town or the idea of skiing was invented.
The reason for wanting to make snow on the peaks is because very often there is not enough snow there naturally. This is a promotion to make Flagstaff a popular place to go. It definitely involves making money for the entire area. Not only will they be enlarging the ski area, there will be new resorts, shops, etc. If it was just to improve the actual skiing, maybe there would not be such a huff.
The peaks are desolate and gorgeous. I ,for one, am not looking forward to the development of the peaks as a large and popular ski resort area to satisfy the needs of a few.
The ski are of Sunrise has nothing to do with the debate is and is owned by the Apache tribe.
I am sorry Valley Native that you do not seem to really know the true natives of Arizona very well.

[w1ngzer0]

Originally Posted by Badland wonder

I am sorry Valley Native that you do not seem to really know the true natives of Arizona very well.

I disagree with that comment. When I use to work on the reservation as a computer tech, I delt with all sorts of natives;Navajo, Hopi, white mountain apache, pima, san carlos apache and i've experienced the same thing with most of the people i've met. I've also delt with one of the tribes jr high and agian, the same issue.

The key phrase here is most, more than 50%, of the natives do have this chip and attitude like Valley Native is talking about, there are very few that are kind and friendly.

[Badland wonder]

I must be fortunate that my experiences have not reflected that attitude.

[poolgirl51]

Originally Posted by Badland wonder

I must be fortunate that my experiences have not reflected that attitude.

I doubt that good fortune had anything to do with it. I am guessing that you treated them with dignity and respect and received the same in kind.

[Valley Native]

The Indian tribes squawk about any so called infringement on the San Francisco Peaks because they hold the mountains sacred. It's too bad they don't feel that way about their own reservation lands. The heart of many reservations are littered with dilapidated shacks for houses & storefronts, and many junk yards. The casinos and strip malls on the reservation entrances are the only somewhat attractive amenities ... which BTW, were not invented by the Indians!

Traeat the American Indians with respect??? Fine. Maybe more people would if they showed a little dignity toward themselves and others. Being respectful doesn't mean taking handouts from the government, and then holding a grudge against the "white man" for taking away their land. Being respectful doesn't mean sitting in coffee shops and sneering at visitors. Respect has to be EARNED.