Flagstaff Proposed New Name: Abundance With A View (homes, unemployment rate)

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by locoenlacabeza

Hahaha I think poverty with a view did used to suit Flagstaff well, now I'd just call it poverty.

Unfortunately these labels keep getting thrown around w/o any solutions offered. If Flagstaff would follow Durango's model, and bring in Superwallmart, that would really help. I think Superwallmart is Durango's 4th or 5th largest employer, and I think it's about 20% of the City's sales tax revenue (from memory, don't quote me). Flagstaff could also use a Costco, Whole Foods, REI, Trader Joes, Factory Outlet Stores, and alternative energy companies. Durango has only ~5% unemployment, lower than Flag and Boulder...

Remember that Flagstaff has a lot of retail leakage to Phoenix without these stores. When I lived there I spent hundreds of dollars over the holidays in Phoenix. That's lost sales tax for the City, for the County, for the public schools, and for the parks...

Outlet stores would really help Flagstaff. Look at other "obscure" places with outlet stores, that "trap" travelers on nearby highways, such as the Village of Oak Creek Factory Outlets near Sedona, the Outlets near Anthem, AZ, or, the outlet stores near Dillon coming down into Denver on I-70, or in Barstow, CA.

Also, Flagstaff serves Coconino County, population 150,000, and parts of several other Northern AZ counties. Flag and Bellemont are also truck stops along I-40, and Flag is the gateway to the Grand Canyon and Sedona. If you brought in these stores and 2,000 more jobs, you would more than double the sales tax receipts for the City of Flagstaff...

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

Flagstaff could also use a Costco, Whole Foods, REI, Trader Joes, Factory Outlet Stores, and alternative energy companies....

But, Flagstaff does not want those stores -

And, there is no reason for Flagstaff to follow another cities "model". The only "model" Flagstaff has to follow is ... well, Flagstaffs!

[Tom Lane]

[quote=Greatday;9295936]But, Flagstaff does not want those stores -

And, there is no reason for Flagstaff to follow another cities "model". The only "model" Flagstaff has to follow is ... well, Flagstaffs![/quote

The people in Flagstaff DO want more big box stores, as they voted down the anti-big box ordinance of the City.

Most residents complain that grocery prices are too high, and that the quality of produce is inferior. If there was a *Super*-Wallmart and Costco in town, that would force everyone to compete w/ factors such as quality and value.

There is a lot of unnecessary retail leakage from Flagstaff to the superwallmarts in Winslow, Anthem, and Cottonwood, and to various big box stores in the Phoenix area.

[poolgirl51]

[quote=Tom Lane;9307225]

Originally Posted by Greatday

But, Flagstaff does not want those stores -

And, there is no reason for Flagstaff to follow another cities "model". The only "model" Flagstaff has to follow is ... well, Flagstaffs![/quote

The people in Flagstaff DO want more big box stores, as they voted down the anti-big box ordinance of the City.

Most residents complain that grocery prices are too high, and that the quality of produce is inferior. If there was a *Super*-Wallmart and Costco in town, that would force everyone to compete w/ factors such as quality and value.

There is a lot of unnecessary retail leakage from Flagstaff to the superwallmarts in Winslow, Anthem, and Cottonwood, and to various big box stores in the Phoenix area.

All good points! We live in Sedona and go to Cottonwood for Wal*Mart, Prescott and Phoenix for Costco and Phoenix for Trader Joes. We really enjoy going up to Flag and would absolutely shop these retailers there over the other locations if they were to open in Flagstaff. We are not ready to make the move from Costco to Sams but we may end up doing that at some point.

[Greatday]

There are many who do oppose WalMart and especially the "super-center" versions. And, in a region that has for decades stressed the "mom and pop" style retailers, WalMarts are considered, right or wrong, the "kiss of death" to the little guy.

One of the groups that Flagstaff attracts are those from the Navajo Nation. Having lived for a time in Tuba City, I can tell you that coming into Flagstaff (or Page) on a Saturday to do grocery shopping was a treat. But, those that live in the area don't always buy what the "regular" stores market - and I'm not talking merely about food stuffs.

And while those who live in Sedona (and Oak Creek area) might find Flagstaff convienent to shop, the demographics for a big box store like Costco might not be there to support it (I have not looked at any recent study - the last one I saw, 1999, showed insufficient population to support the big box).

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by Greatday

There are many who do oppose WalMart and especially the "super-center" versions. And, in a region that has for decades stressed the "mom and pop" style retailers, WalMarts are considered, right or wrong, the "kiss of death" to the little guy.

The Mom and Pop stores will always get business, even w/ a Superwallmart. Wallmart provides general merchandise, not stuff you'll find in a speciality store.

For instance if I need bike equipment, local hiking maps, or vitamins, I go to the locally owned and operated stores. Durango, CO also has a tradition of local stores, and they're doing fine even with a Wallmart 4 miles up the hill. Their Wallmart tax revenue paid for their new rec center.

Same thing with Summit County, CO where there's a Wallmart in Frisco, CO. - providing tax revenue. And, five local bike shops in Frisco all doing just fine.

It's the retail leakage that is so important to prevent in this recession. Flag City Manager Kevin Burke had to slash the Flagstaff City budget due to declining tax receipts. If they would build a Superwallmart, you'd have 150,000 people from Coconino County all coming to Flagstaff for groceries, supporting the tax base, rather than potential sales taxes going to Winslow or Cottonwood.

Originally Posted by Greatday

And while those who live in Sedona (and Oak Creek area) might find Flagstaff convienent to shop, the demographics for a big box store like Costco might not be there to support it (I have not looked at any recent study - the last one I saw, 1999, showed insufficient population to support the big box).

What study was this? Did the outside consultants never question the residents directly? That's why I'm an economic Libertarian - let the people decide what stores they want, and eliminate impact fees and hiring outside consultants. These are real political controversies right now in Flag.

The residents of Flagstaff voted down the anti-big box ordinance. I don't know what the current status of the Flag Superwallmart is, but in this recession, I fear for Flag's future unless they learn how to capture the sales tax of 150,000 people in Coconino County. There's no reason that unemployment has to be so high in Northern AZ.

Originally Posted by poolgirl51

All good points! We live in Sedona and go to Cottonwood for Wal*Mart, Prescott and Phoenix for Costco and Phoenix for Trader Joes. We really enjoy going up to Flag and would absolutely shop these retailers there over the other locations if they were to open in Flagstaff. We are not ready to make the move from Costco to Sams but we may end up doing that at some point.

And...while you're in Flagstaff someday at a possible Costco or Superwallmart, maybe you'd spend an evening downtown at the LOCALLY owned great restaurants and stores as well, and perhaps stop by the forthcoming Chicos and Pita Jungle :-)

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

There's no reason that unemployment has to be so high in Northern AZ.

Sure there is Tom - evidently, you are unaware that Native American population is included in those numbers -

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

And...while you're in Flagstaff someday at a possible Costco or Superwallmart, maybe you'd spend an evening downtown at the LOCALLY owned great restaurants and stores as well, and perhaps stop by the forthcoming Chicos and Pita Jungle

"Someday"?

As a property owner in Flagstaff, I'm there far more than just "someday". Chicos and Pita Jungle hold no interest to me.

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Sure there is Tom - evidently, you are unaware that Native American population is included in those numbers -

There is NO reason that unemployment has to be so high in Flagstaff. I know several people in Flagstaff who have been w/o jobs for months to years. There are VERY few high paying jobs, and those that are go to "the locals." They don't hire outsiders except for the college students at NAU. If you don't have a good credit score, they won't hire you.

Many people are under-employed, working part time shifts with no benefits.

The unemployment numbers don't count non-residents students at Northern AZ University (and their spouses) who might like to have a part time job at a Trader Joes, Costco, Wallmart, or Whole Foods.

The State of Arizona makes it very difficult to apply for unemployment benefits.

Just avoid Arizona right now until the economy gets better, unless you have a job lined up in advance.

If Frisco, Colorado (next to Breckenridge) can have a Wallmart (along with neighborhing Dillon/Silverthorne), where 94% vote Democratic (City-Data.com), then why can't Flagstaff, who also votes Democratic?

There are some left-wing wacko control freaks running Flagstaff. Same story in Boulder, CO and Santa Fe, NM -- towns also w/o a Superwallmart.

Durango also votes 70% Democratic, and they have a Superwallmart. It gives them at least 20% of their tax revenue. It's also listed on the Durango Chamber of Commerce brochure as Durango's fourth largest employer.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

There is NO reason that unemployment has to be so high in Flagstaff.

Tom, the unemployment rate in Flagstaff / Coconino County has always been higher (generally) than the rest of the state.

And Tom - Durango is of no consequence. Flagstaff is Flagstaff - not Durango, or Boulder.

Better get used to it Tom.