Flagstaff Proposed New Name: Abundance With A View (Mesa, Sedona: hotels, home)

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by locoenlacabeza

Flag couldn't sustain the building and growth that happened 10 years ago, let alone what is being done now. Even the people lack small town attitudes.....

The first time I lived in Flag I was 14- hehe maybe remember GIRLS RANCH? anyway, i was enamoured with the place having come from the valley where no one knew eachother and no one waved as you drove down the street. Flag was just that. Everyone knew one another and everyone waved even if you didn't. I fell in love with the place.......

By the time I was old enough to move back on my own at 19 and start raising my family that small town mind was gone. No one cared anymore. Rarely did anyone wave or even attempt to be neighborly.....

So for those people in Flag who hold on to the "small town" hopes of Flag, I think you're fighting a losing battle. Flag hasn't been a small town in a good 15 years or more. So to attempt to keep out big boxes and other sources of progress is just done in vain....You lost your small town too long ago......

I've heard the same thing from other long time residents in Flagstaff. But when they're paying $4.99 for a loaf of bread and $1000.00 a month for rent, they're not happy. The "happiness" scale is also correlated with the "smart growth" index. All Arizona towns have to comply with the ridiculous Arizona Smart Growth Act.

Well, the same thing happened in Boulder, it USED to be a friendly small town in the 1970's. It's now a congested maze of 6 lane boulevards w/ rude drivers, surrounding large shopping complexes that extend all the way to metro Denver.

One place that IS still friendly and a small town is Durango, Colorado. And they have no problems with Superwallmart or other Big Box stores. If I could find a job there, I'd move there in an instant!

[locoenlacabeza]

Unfortunately, no matter how liberal democrat AZ or Flag maybe, unions will never be big here.
My husband worked for Unisource in Flag and fought to get the union in, and they got it in but because AZ is a right to work state your union reps rarely have the cojones to fight the corporations.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Tom Lane

Back in Seattle if you are a liberal Democrat, you are automatically pro-business - since the big box stores Fred Meyer and Costco were born in Seattle/Portland. Both are unionized stores, providing benefits and at least a third of all grocery receipts in the Seattle Metro. So I cannot, nor will I ever, understand the anti-business, anti-union, anti-wallmart, anti-middle class, Elitist attitude in Boulder, Flagstaff, and Santa Fe. These communities have a gap between the rich and the poor, that simply would not be acceptable in most communities in the Seattle area.

The fact that one belongs to a political party does NOT MEAN that they will walk lock step with that parties platform - and that is a good thing. I know republicans who support abortions - while some Democrats are member of the Right to Life (Pro Life) groups.

I cannot speak to other states you referenced - but, I can reference Arizona. As a life long resident (more than 6 decades), a business owner (several different businesses concurrently), former holder of political office (State wide level), have sat on, or cur renting sitting on, various boards and commissions (some of which involve land use planning through out the state), I feel I have the competence to discuss Arizona and her growth - past, present and future.

Arizona is a Right to Work state - always has been, currently remains so, and will be so into the future. No one is, or will be, required to join a Union in order to work in this State. That is not to say that Unions cannot try to Unionize a business (this is currently the case with a particular Grocery Store company) - but, even if they are successful, employees cannot be compelled to join to get, or keep their job.

The entire State of Arizona, and especially Northern Arizona, has had NO DESIRE to become .... "big". It sometimes just happens though and the cities sometimes experience the "pains" of such growth. But, cities like Flagstaff really don't want the larger employers you mention - because they do not want to really attract more permanent residents to the area - residents that would be necessary to staff such stores. Existing residents do not represent a sufficient number to staff those stores.

Areas like Flagstaff, Holbrook, Winslow, Kingman etc don't want to build more schools, parks - more subdivisions or shopping centers. They don't want to "pave over" the natural environment - they don't want to become another "concrete jungle".

Frankly, Tucson is experiencing some of the same problems as Flagstaff - as is Yuma.

So Tom, your desire to expand the Flagstaff area is, I'm afraid, an effort in futility - it will not happen.

And, just because there are Democrats in Flagstaff - does not mean, they are "democrats" as you would like to have them.

[locoenlacabeza]

Originally Posted by Greatday

The fact that one belongs to a political party does NOT MEAN that they will walk lock step with that parties platform - and that is a good thing. I know republicans who support abortions - while some Democrats are member of the Right to Life (Pro Life) groups.

I cannot speak to other states you referenced - but, I can reference Arizona. As a life long resident (more than 6 decades), a business owner (several different businesses concurrently), former holder of political office (State wide level), have sat on, or cur renting sitting on, various boards and commissions (some of which involve land use planning through out the state), I feel I have the competence to discuss Arizona and her growth - past, present and future.

Arizona is a Right to Work state - always has been, currently remains so, and will be so into the future. No one is, or will be, required to join a Union in order to work in this State. That is not to say that Unions cannot try to Unionize a business (this is currently the case with a particular Grocery Store company) - but, even if they are successful, employees cannot be compelled to join to get, or keep their job.

The entire State of Arizona, and especially Northern Arizona, has had NO DESIRE to become .... "big". It sometimes just happens though and the cities sometimes experience the "pains" of such growth. But, cities like Flagstaff really don't want the larger employers you mention - because they do not want to really attract more permanent residents to the area - residents that would be necessary to staff such stores. Existing residents do not represent a sufficient number to staff those stores.

Areas like Flagstaff, Holbrook, Winslow, Kingman etc don't want to build more schools, parks - more subdivisions or shopping centers. They don't want to "pave over" the natural environment - they don't want to become another "concrete jungle".

Frankly, Tucson is experiencing some of the same problems as Flagstaff - as is Yuma.

So Tom, your desire to expand the Flagstaff area is, I'm afraid, an effort in futility - it will not happen.

And, just because there are Democrats in Flagstaff - does not mean, they are "democrats" as you would like to have them.

Actually Winslow is all for growth, and they are doing it as we speak. They see the need for it and they see all the retail leakage they get from Flagstaff and are responding to it.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by locoenlacabeza

Actually Winslow is all for growth, and they are doing it as we speak. They see the need for it and they see all the retail leakage they get from Flagstaff and are responding to it.

Winslow is not doing the type of growth that Tom is suggesting.

[locoenlacabeza]

Really? Adding a super walmart? Building new subdivisions? and there is speak of a "big box" type of resturant coming as well as big box hardware store?
Lets not forget the new auto dealership thats gone up just beside the superwalmart. For Winslow not planning on big growth, they sure did allow a BIG new dealership to go up, and possibly compete with the mom and pop of Cakes (not sure if the Cake's built the new dealership or not which is why I say possibly).

[Tom Lane]

Originally Posted by locoenlacabeza

Really? Adding a super walmart? Building new subdivisions? and there is speak of a "big box" type of resturant coming as well as big box hardware store?
Lets not forget the new auto dealership thats gone up just beside the superwalmart. For Winslow not planning on big growth, they sure did allow a BIG new dealership to go up, and possibly compete with the mom and pop of Cakes (not sure if the Cake's built the new dealership or not which is why I say possibly).

Good points regarding Winslow AZ: Lots of people from Flagstaff shop at the Superwallmart in Winslow, along with the one in Cottonwood. That is significant retail leakage for Flagstaff. It's only 70 miles of interstate, and a lot of people work in Flagstaff, and commute to Winslow for cheaper housing. Perhaps Flagstaff should cancel its development impact fees to allow more housing within city limits.

Flagstaff would be a much nicer town if people were happier, and didn't have to put up with expensive food and rents. Since the happiness index correlates with smart growth, then eliminating all the impact fees would allow for more affordable housing. Oregon is one of the least happy states in the US and they have heavy smart growth restrictions.

Boulder, Colorado is a high stressed out place even worse than Flagstaff, w/ even heavier growth restrictions and impact fees even on residential remodeling. The reason these towns get a bad reputation on city data, from those of us from the Economically Libertarian west coast, is because they are so anti-business/anti-young people/anti-middle class/anti-home ownership. Yes Arizona is anti-union, and that's really a non issue since it's the Arizona Office of Smart Growth that's the big problem. "Socialistic" policies and governmental control contribute to unhappiness that the previous poster alluded to, and, the survey in Oregon: The Antiplanner :: No Joy for Smart Land :: http://ti.org/antiplanner

The pro-smart growth far left wacko baby boomers in office need to be voted out of office. We need young people (20's, 30's) like myself to run for office and cancel ALL of the smart growth restrictions. It's not fair to construction workers and landscapers who are out of work because of the US EPA's "smart growth" agenda: Smart Growth Online I have worked in the horticulture industry, and am disgusted that our politicians block growth causing unemployment in this field.

Flagstaff can decide what it wants to do. Meanwhile they are losing tax dollars to Winslow, Cottonwood, and Phoenix. As a result, they have to slash their budget and layoff city employees. Most citizens in Flagstaff want their children to have good schools. Flagstaff had to layoff 30% of the teachers (unless this was resolved since I left).

As for the tree huggers not liking Wallmart? The same cheap labor is used to make products sold at Home Depot, Target, Best Buy, and Wallgreens. And, Wallmart has all the same national brands as these other stores. The same national grocery brands at Safeway, Albertsons, etc. are found at Wallmart. If you don't like the urban design of Wallmart, then go look at the Wallmart in Durango, Colorado complete with grass mounds, wildflowers, and a dark green roof. Wallmart is not unionized, so if that's a problem, then at least build a Costco.

[locoenlacabeza]

The pro-smart growth far left wacko baby boomers in office need to be voted out of office. We need young people (20's, 30's) like myself to run for office and cancel ALL of the smart growth restrictions. It's not fair to construction workers and landscapers who are out of work because of the US EPA's "smart growth" agenda: Smart Growth Online I have worked in the horticulture industry, and am disgusted that our politicians block growth causing unemployment in this field.

Completely agree, more people in their 20's and 30's need to get involved in every aspect of politics from the local levels on up. Unfortunately the boomers are still a large voter base and likely wouldn't vote a 20 something into any kind of office. And unfortunately many of our generation still don't think that politics are important enough to get involved in in so much as even voting and then there are those that cast highly uneducated votes which is even more dangerous than those that aren't interested in voting.

[locoenlacabeza]

lol and no i do not want to know about islam- but thanks!

[Arizona1]

I remember the same fight and proposal by proponents in a small town at the time in California called Temecula. Big business special interest groups who created a developement on the outside of the small town wanted to change the name of their city to Rancho California, so named after their rich class developement. It had a more sophisticated flavor in their opinion and had the total support of most the resl estate people, who saw only $ signs for their potential future sales. In the end it was the U S Post Office who refused to change the name since it had been there since the very late 1800s. People were free to call it what they wanted but in the end their offical postal address was still going to be Temecula, California.