Brewer wanting to increase taxes and a big no no (Phoenix: sales, 2009)

[w1ngzer0]

Brewer lists steps to keep state afloat
5-point plan includes raising taxes, redirecting voter-approved funds

Brewer lists steps to keep state afloat

Raise to what?

There are plenty of jobs "available" at the state department, how about proceeding with a hiring freeze like a lot of states have done already?

[Ponderosa]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. They already have a hiring freeze and furloughs for pretty much everyone.

I would support a tax increase if it is targeted to education and does not give more money for welfare handouts. In fact, I'd support a PERMANENT tax that would increase funding for education at all levels in Arizona.

As for the measure to steal money from voter initiatives - no way. Once they get started they will just gut everything they don't like. The reason these things are there is because the legislature would not support them and the people had to step in.

[w1ngzer0]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

I'm not sure what you are getting at. They already have a hiring freeze and furloughs for pretty much everyone.

Oh balls. I rechecked the job listing, you're right. I looked about a month ago and there were 2 pages of non-emergency related jobs.

I would support a tax increase if it is targeted to education and does not give more money for welfare handouts. In fact, I'd support a PERMANENT tax that would increase funding for education at all levels in Arizona.

That would be fine, but i doubt it would go towards education.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by w1ngzer0

Oh balls. I rechecked the job listing, you're right. I looked about a month ago and there were 2 pages of non-emergency related jobs.

There are some "mission critical" exceptions to the hiring freeze, but trust me, there is one, has been for quite a while. Lots of paper hoops to jump through to try to prove you need to fill a job. Empty desks in my office to prove it.

The hole is deep enough that there isn't a way out without raising revenue somewhere. Targeting it to education would make it easier for people to swallow, for sure.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

I would support a tax increase if it is targeted to education and does not give more money for welfare handouts. In fact, I'd support a PERMANENT tax that would increase funding for education at all levels in Arizona.

How about making those who USE the public education system pay the taxes? Education already takes up nearly 50% of the state's budget, which is a huge amount of funding when you break it down & compare it to other allocations. The reason I'm opposed to increased education funding on a public level is there is no evidence that schools improve when more money is put into the system. We're still paying for the large sales tax increase of 2000 when voters approved the hike for education. Nothing improved. Education is highly important, but putting more taxation and more government into the system hasn't solved anything. In fact, things become worse in terms of bureaucracy & overhead. The long term method of improving schools (and reducing the burden on taxpayers at the same time) is privatization.

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

As for the measure to steal money from voter initiatives - no way. Once they get started they will just gut everything they don't like. The reason these things are there is because the legislature would not support them and the people had to step in.

Agree with you here 100%. The voters should always have the final say in anything. Why bother to vote and approve initiatives if they're going to be shot down and gutted by our so called "leaders"?!

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

How about making those who USE the public education system pay the taxes? Education already takes up nearly 50% of the state's budget, which is a huge amount of funding when you break it down & compare it to other allocations. The reason I'm opposed to increased education funding on a public level is there is no evidence that schools improve when more money is put into the system. We're still paying for the large sales tax increase of 2000 when voters approved the hike for education. Nothing improved. Education is highly important, but putting more taxation and more government into the system hasn't solved anything. In fact, things become worse in terms of bureaucracy & overhead. The long term method of improving schools (and reducing the burden on taxpayers at the same time) is privatization.



Agree with you here 100%. The voters should always have the final say in anything. Why bother to vote and approve initiatives if they're going to be shot down and gutted by our so called "leaders"?!

Well, we have been around about this before and I think you agree, your ideas about privatization are never going to take root. Given that reality, we should do what we can to make our schools as great as the can be. I think that begins with adequate funding. I often see posts from you where you express a desire for Phoenix to attract headquarters, F500 companies, high tech industries and diversified professional services. That will not happen with the lousy reputation our schools have. No one is going to move their company here when the managers fear their children will suffer and when the schools and universities can not sustain a qualified labor market. We (you) need to accept that and change your tune from pining for a system that will never be to supporting public education as a pragmatic approach to putting into place what a company wants to see when considering relocation - strong public schools and universities.

[odinloki1]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

How about making those who USE the public education system pay the taxes? Education already takes up nearly 50% of the state's budget, which is a huge amount of funding when you break it down & compare it to other allocations. The reason I'm opposed to increased education funding on a public level is there is no evidence that schools improve when more money is put into the system. We're still paying for the large sales tax increase of 2000 when voters approved the hike for education. Nothing improved. Education is highly important, but putting more taxation and more government into the system hasn't solved anything. In fact, things become worse in terms of bureaucracy & overhead. The long term method of improving schools (and reducing the burden on taxpayers at the same time) is privatization.



Agree with you here 100%. The voters should always have the final say in anything. Why bother to vote and approve initiatives if they're going to be shot down and gutted by our so called "leaders"?!

I agree with you that money won't always fix everything, but Arizona teacher salaries are a joke. When a CNA fresh out of high school can make more than a teacher with 10 years experience, you should question the pay. I was a teacher for 2 years and am now a CNA, so I'm quite familiar with both and being a CNA is less stress for more money and I'm not held accountable for the actions of children, only my job. Better start questioning that. A corporation running education and suppressing salaries to make money is not going to fair any better in this regard.

My fiance is a teacher and works in south side Tucson. They were told they're going to be taking a pay cut. Is our mortgage or rent going to decrease??? Doubtful. We decided to leave in May. Now to put up with all the crap on the south side of town, what do you think its worth (her school already has about 50 percent yearly turnover). We're moving to a state we feel teachers have ore of a fighting chance.

The devil is in the details with privatization. Tell me the details of how it would be successful with ALL children. Where will all of these private school teachers come from that would make privatization successful? Last time I checked, the state has enough problems getting math and science teachers. What would happen to the children of parents who had no money, couldn't make the commutes to the good schools. Who gets to go to the successful schools and what happens those that can't? Just a further separation between economic classes, with a couple of Horatio Alger stories thrown in to give the lower class hope, is my best bet.

I am open to the idea of privatization, but hows this going to help the average kid, not just the above average ones? I want actual details not just cliches about how wonderful competition is.

[odinloki1]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Well, we have been around about this before and I think you agree, your ideas about privatization are never going to take root. Given that reality, we should do what we can to make our schools as great as the can be. I think that begins with adequate funding. I often see posts from you where you express a desire for Phoenix to attract headquarters, F500 companies, high tech industries and diversified professional services. That will not happen with the lousy reputation our schools have. No one is going to move their company here when the managers fear their children will suffer and when the schools and universities can not sustain a qualified labor market. We (you) need to accept that and change your tune from pining for a system that will never be to supporting public education as a pragmatic approach to putting into place what a company wants to see when considering relocation - strong public schools and universities.

Good post.

[BillR1]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

How about making those who USE the public education system pay the taxes?

I agree 100% here. Place the additional education tax needs on the families that HAVE kids in the school system, instead of taxing the rest of us also.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by BillR1

I agree 100% here. Place the additional education tax needs on the families that HAVE kids in the school system, instead of taxing the rest of us also.

Everyone USES education. Where do you think those doctors treating all the old farts self-inflicted maladies came from? I saw on another blog the remark: Think education is expensive - try ignorance.