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Unread 11-27-2009, 01:39 PM
 
Location: USA
3,729 posts, read 5,425,065 times
Reputation: 1871
Default Lack of employer moral in Arizona

I am open to facts and not opinions. Sure one could say, moral in the eyes of each is an opinion. But effecting the lively hood of an honest, hard working employee, is a moral fact.

We will divide this into sections of the state and then if it seems all the same we will talk about the entire state as a whole.

Coming from the land of unions, California, there was a typical three strike and your out deal with employers. They could either invest time into you or management could give advise and move on. Health care was never promised and your job was secure as long as you did your job.

Arizona. Right to work state. No unions and they are banned by the Arizona constitution. Employers can get rid of an employee for any reason and at anytime. There is no effort made by management to fix the problem beyond getting rid of an employee. Health care is uncommon and your job is never secure even if you were to do everything as asked.

These things are before the economic downturn.

There many stories, from many people, I have had to listen to. Teachers fired and given no reason, did not hurt any child or do anything wrong. They figured that person was no longer a fit and decided in mid-year, alienating the children with a different adult and different teaching style.

Maintenance people for a large company, after 26 years, given a certified letter telling them they are no longer needed. There is no reasons behind it and the company is not downsizing or closing. The only thing that comes to mind is money. But why not offer an alternative then firing?

Moving to Arizona, to work for a company that says this and that; in turn, the job is something else and when they are done with you. Firing you and denying you from collecting unemployment.

I could go on forever about stories of teachers, labors, maintenance, IT, ect.

I need some input from others before i can continue. I keep typing things to add but they don't make sense because they sound like replies. My only thought i how, as a person, can you do this without effecting you emotionally?
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Unread 11-27-2009, 01:43 PM
 
1,013 posts, read 1,412,676 times
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Unemployment compensation is meager in AZ. I think its a result of being a right to work state. Nonetheless, if you lose your job in AZ, God help you if you need social assistance because you wont get it.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 03:57 PM
 
Location: South Tempe, AZ
12,888 posts, read 14,193,030 times
Reputation: 5392
Did you mean "employer morale" or "employer morals" ?


I don't think being a right to work state and the low UI payments have anything to do with one another. "Right to work" simply means you can't be forced to join, or not join, a union to get or keep a job. Period.

Yes, it is true in AZ you can fire for no reason or a good reason, but not for a bad reason (illegal or against public policy). Unions aren't illegal (or unconstitutional-- where did you get that?) in Arizona, they just don't have the power or visibility they have in other states.

Whether management of a private employer makes an effort to work with an employee who is salvageable depends on the employer.

Teachers are governed by certain statutes... teachers without tenure are easy to terminate at any time, those with tenure, not so much. Public employees (at least permanent status ones) also have some rights/protections that private employees don't.

Not every employee who is "fired" by an employer is ineligible for unemployment. It's been years since I worked in that field, and I no longer remember the particulars, but there are exceptions.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 04:54 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
3,253 posts, read 3,958,286 times
Reputation: 2751
Quote:
Originally Posted by w1ngzer0 View Post
I am open to facts and not opinions. Sure one could say, moral in the eyes of each is an opinion. But effecting the lively hood of an honest, hard working employee, is a moral fact.

We will divide this into sections of the state and then if it seems all the same we will talk about the entire state as a whole.

Coming from the land of unions, California, there was a typical three strike and your out deal with employers. They could either invest time into you or management could give advise and move on. Health care was never promised and your job was secure as long as you did your job.

Arizona. Right to work state. No unions and they are banned by the Arizona constitution. Employers can get rid of an employee for any reason and at anytime. There is no effort made by management to fix the problem beyond getting rid of an employee. Health care is uncommon and your job is never secure even if you were to do everything as asked.

These things are before the economic downturn.

There many stories, from many people, I have had to listen to. Teachers fired and given no reason, did not hurt any child or do anything wrong. They figured that person was no longer a fit and decided in mid-year, alienating the children with a different adult and different teaching style.

Maintenance people for a large company, after 26 years, given a certified letter telling them they are no longer needed. There is no reasons behind it and the company is not downsizing or closing. The only thing that comes to mind is money. But why not offer an alternative then firing?

Moving to Arizona, to work for a company that says this and that; in turn, the job is something else and when they are done with you. Firing you and denying you from collecting unemployment.

I could go on forever about stories of teachers, labors, maintenance, IT, ect.

I need some input from others before i can continue. I keep typing things to add but they don't make sense because they sound like replies. My only thought i how, as a person, can you do this without effecting you emotionally?
OK, I'll provide some facts. In unionized areas such as many eastern states, good luck to you if your fellow workers ever went on strike, and you had to cross the picket line to go to work & earn a living. Non strikers such as these (labeled as "scabs") were spit on, had objects thrown at them, and were harassed beyond belief ... all because they decided to do the jobs they were paid to do instead of out raising hell in a picket demonstration!

Arizona is a right to work state for very good reasons. A long time ago, quite a few people moved here from eastern rust belt regions of the country to escape labor unions. My parents were once victims of harassment & abuse by striking workers where they once lived ... and were among those who chose Arizona to relocate and get a fresh start away from union rule.

The prices of basic goods & services are much higher in unionized areas. Striking workers not only drive up costs, but they also inconvenience customers by not providing the services they were paid to do. I've heard some horror stories about patrons being harassed by strikers. When bus drivers went on strike one time, a bus driven by a non union bus driver was shot at, which put the driver and the passengers in a very hostile, dangerous situation.

Incidentally, you are never singled out & fired from your job in a right to work state unless there is good reason. If you make demands that are unreasonable, are not meeting standards, are constantly late, and are a high maintenance employee, those are sufficient grounds for termination. Sure, the employees who are fired can turn the story around and claim discrimination, unfairness, and all kinds of conspiracy theories, but they are often exaggerated or untrue. Labor unions often bend over backward to protect slacking workers so they have a harder time being rightfully disciplined or terminated.

Another thing: are you outraged at all the outsourcing of American jobs that has occurred over the past decade or so? Labor unions CLAIM to want to keep jobs in America ... but their high demands for wages & other perks have contributed to the reason why many companies have established bases overseas where it is cheaper to operate. Maybe you'll disagree, but I don't think it's necessary or economically wise to pay widget makers $20 per hour plus extensive benefits.

One reason I like Arizona is it is a right to work state, meaning non union for the most part. I don't want my goods and services being disrupted by strikers who are greedy for more pay and more perks which they don't deserve. If you like unions and all they have to offer, that's your choice. Maybe you should return to CA, or move somewhere back east.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
15,904 posts, read 10,669,366 times
Reputation: 7655
Arizzona is organized around making Americans compete for low wages with illegals so the rich can line tjheir pockets. Then when things go bad, blame the illegals
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Unread 11-27-2009, 06:23 PM
 
Location: USA
3,729 posts, read 5,425,065 times
Reputation: 1871
Quote:
Originally Posted by observer53 View Post
Did you mean "employer morale" or "employer morals" ?
Employer morals is what i meant. Thank you for correcting me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
OK, I'll provide some facts. In unionized areas such as many eastern states, good luck to you if your fellow workers ever went on strike, and you had to cross the picket line to go to work & earn a living. Non strikers such as these (labeled as "scabs") were spit on, had objects thrown at them, and were harassed beyond belief ... all because they decided to do the jobs they were paid to do instead of out raising hell in a picket demonstration!

Arizona is a right to work state for very good reasons. A long time ago, quite a few people moved here from eastern rust belt regions of the country to escape labor unions. My parents were once victims of harassment & abuse by striking workers where they once lived ... and were among those who chose Arizona to relocate and get a fresh start away from union rule.

The prices of basic goods & services are much higher in unionized areas. Striking workers not only drive up costs, but they also inconvenience customers by not providing the services they were paid to do. I've heard some horror stories about patrons being harassed by strikers. When bus drivers went on strike one time, a bus driven by a non union bus driver was shot at, which put the driver and the passengers in a very hostile, dangerous situation.
It is the mob mentality and will happen in any situation. Get enough people together, something stupid is bound to happen. Union or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
Incidentally, you are never singled out & fired from your job in a right to work state unless there is good reason.
This is a falsehood. Remember i said fact, not opinion? All the fox talk show hosts try to do the same thing on TV. It's funny.

I can't say for all companies. But the small businesses, school districts, and 500 employee companies, I have been exposed to out here will fire you to a.)hire someone extremely cheaper b.) someone has a grudge against you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
If you make demands that are unreasonable, are not meeting standards, are constantly late, and are a high maintenance employee, those are sufficient grounds for termination. Sure, the employees who are fired can turn the story around and claim discrimination, unfairness, and all kinds of conspiracy theories, but they are often exaggerated or untrue. Labor unions often bend over backward to protect slacking workers so they have a harder time being rightfully disciplined or terminated.
Again. Another false story and seem to be more opinions then fact. When i worked for a school district in California as a computer technician I never had to stress or pull out hair worrying about if i was going to be fired for any reason. I was let go eventually because it was my own fault. They required me to have a vehicle and i didn't get one. I didn't see any union rep fighting for me or forcing the school district to buy a district vehicle. Its silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
Another thing: are you outraged at all the outsourcing of American jobs that has occurred over the past decade or so? Labor unions CLAIM to want to keep jobs in America ... but their high demands for wages & other perks have contributed to the reason why many companies have established bases overseas where it is cheaper to operate. Maybe you'll disagree, but I don't think it's necessary or economically wise to pay widget makers $20 per hour plus extensive benefits.
I really have nothing to say about that because that turns into a debate. We are also talking about Arizona specifically not the United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
One reason I like Arizona is it is a right to work state, meaning non union for the most part. I don't want my goods and services being disrupted by strikers who are greedy for more pay and more perks which they don't deserve. If you like unions and all they have to offer, that's your choice. Maybe you should return to CA, or move somewhere back east.
Who said anything about unions. Sure what i said at the beginning may look like me wanting to establish unions in this state. But I don't want this company telling this company what to do. But there is no protection for any employee here what so ever. Teachers are no longer protected by tenure and they get a pay cut soon.

Why should I leave my state? Why not fix the problem instead of fixing it later like the Arizona politicians seem to enjoy doing.

Last edited by shiphead; 11-27-2009 at 06:46 PM..
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Unread 11-27-2009, 06:43 PM
 
Location: South Tempe, AZ
12,888 posts, read 14,193,030 times
Reputation: 5392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post

Incidentally, you are never singled out & fired from your job in a right to work state unless there is good reason. If you make demands that are unreasonable, are not meeting standards, are constantly late, and are a high maintenance employee, those are sufficient grounds for termination. Sure, the employees who are fired can turn the story around and claim discrimination, unfairness, and all kinds of conspiracy theories, but they are often exaggerated or untrue. Labor unions often bend over backward to protect slacking workers so they have a harder time being rightfully disciplined or terminated.
It has come up before here, but "right to work" and "employment at will" are two completely separate concepts that have nothing to do with each other. Employment at will (employer can fire for NO reason or a good reason) exists in both right to work states and non-right to work states. (Even in non-right to work states, many, if not most, employees are not covered by union contracts. )

I used to work for a labor union, here in AZ, representing disciplined workers. I had a union policy backing me that said I didn't have to take the case of everyone who came through the door, and I turned down several of them flat, or the employer was willing to let some others resign in lieu of termination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by w1ngzer0 View Post
Yes. That is correct. Thank you for correcting me.
Which did you mean?
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Unread 11-27-2009, 06:45 PM
 
Location: USA
3,729 posts, read 5,425,065 times
Reputation: 1871
lol oops. i meant employer morals.
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Unread 11-28-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
3,253 posts, read 3,958,286 times
Reputation: 2751
Quote:
Originally Posted by w1ngzer0 View Post
This is a falsehood. Remember i said fact, not opinion? All the fox talk show hosts try to do the same thing on TV. It's funny.

I can't say for all companies. But the small businesses, school districts, and 500 employee companies, I have been exposed to out here will fire you to a.)hire someone extremely cheaper b.) someone has a grudge against you.
Perhaps in some instances that is true. However, there are many other resources besides unions to go through that can help in those matters. I still stand by my statement that in the majority of cases, a person will not be singled out and be terminated unless he/she has violated company policy in some way (e.g. poor attendance, not meeting productivity standards, harassing other employees, making unreasonable demands, threats, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by w1ngzer0 View Post
Who said anything about unions. Sure what i said at the beginning may look like me wanting to establish unions in this state. But I don't want this company telling this company what to do. But there is no protection for any employee here what so ever. Teachers are no longer protected by tenure and they get a pay cut soon.
Employees need to protect themselves, and not always be relying on unions or Big Brother to come to their rescue. I realize not all workplaces are perfect, but there are some things a person can do to ensure security in his/her career:
* become college educated
* find a well established, reputable firm to work for
* network with other people that share your same goals & interests
* don't make too many waves with management (even in times of disagreement)
* continuously meet expectations ... and better yet, work on exceeding expectations
* take on other tasks that aren't in your job criteria
* establish yourself as a long term employee because senority DOES matter in many cases

All of this does NOT in any way equate to "butt kissing" or "brown nosing". It simply means being a worthwhile employee and an asset to the company you work for. I've worked at my company for over 16 years, and have encountered the good times and the not so good times. I've witnessed layoffs in my department. I've had some serious disagreements with both employees and management. No company is going to be problem free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by w1ngzer0 View Post
Why should I leave my state? Why not fix the problem instead of fixing it later like the Arizona politicians seem to enjoy doing.
Well, I won't argue about Arizona's idiotic politicans in general. There's really no problem to fix in terms of the labor situation. Unions and more protection won't solve anything. In fact, if more unionization is allowed into this state, you'll see more companies exiting, and I don't want to see that happen. We definitely need to increase the quantity of reputable firms that pay competitive wages, but creating more unions and/or more gov't involvement is not the way to do it.
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Unread 11-29-2009, 04:15 PM
 
123 posts, read 171,888 times
Reputation: 120
Hmmmm well let's define Morals. What is morally acceptable to you is not to someone else. Corporate and business morals adhere to none of those morals considered by an employee or a politicion.

I contend that morality is a concept that is as fluid as a river moving or drying up. Now if you speak of some universally accepted code of morality, then I'd like to see that myself...should be interesting given that humans break their own codes and laws daily.
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