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Old 03-13-2010, 09:23 AM
 
845 posts, read 1,461,625 times
Reputation: 288

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
I agree with you and money is not going to fix that. Nobody gives a flip about anything but themselves anymore - from the little brats who disrupt classes to the teachers who are just there for the paycheck to the bloated ticks in the administration, to the school board members pushing a social agenda. It's just another manifestation of the me-first, self-indulgence that pervades our society. It is not substantively different from the attitude that I shouldn't have to pay taxes because I don't use this or that service. It is what America has become and I don't have an answer for it - maybe a prolonged depression. Do you?

Look at how hard these smaller districts campaigned against consolodation. Two school districts, four miles apart, below average for 40 years, doing everything possible to not consolodate. We all know why.
It's the same selfishness.

I'm all for education. I'm all against wasting money. It looks like the only way to teach the school districts is to cut their funds and force them to use their funds in the classroom.

I've seen some online learning tools for various subjects that are better than anything I have ever seen in public schools. The cost? F-R-E-E.
Meanwhile, 15 yo 8th graders are throwing 80 Dollar Science books around like old phonebooks. That hurts.

Would anyone care to go to a school dismissal, where 98% of the students get free/reduced lunch, and observe the vehicles? Same way at the DES office. There's too much scamming going on here.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,249 posts, read 11,615,636 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
I happen to be one of them. I too am a retired boomer. That doesn't blind me to what our generation has turned into - all about money and consumption and self-gratification at the expense of you-name-it. We ought to be ashamed. What happened to us on the way from Woodstock to Sun City? I think we owe the next generation the same shot at the good life we had. They may not get that - many dark clouds are gathering. But if they fail it should not be because we were too tight to pitch in another hundred bucks a year to school them.
I wish there were more old people like yourself. I am younger but old myself. I was at Woodstock but about 15 years from Sun City. I feel the same way. I was educated in public schools. My dad worked in a factory (Boeing) and my mom stayed home until the youngest of us entered high school. Then she only worked part time. None of us went without food, clothes or other necessities of life. People did not mind paying for schools, cops, firemen, streets, highways and the Cold War because they saw it as a part of the building of a great society.
Today most old people are selfish to a fault. They think it is their God given right not to pay taxes to anything even though they live much better than old people did even 20 years ago. They get their medical- and now even their prescriptions for free courtesy of those still working. They should remember that next time they are asked to pony up an extra penny on the dollar to pay for schools.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
17,368 posts, read 20,533,956 times
Reputation: 9066
Quote:
Originally Posted by adolpho View Post
Look at how hard these smaller districts campaigned against consolodation. Two school districts, four miles apart, below average for 40 years, doing everything possible to not consolodate. We all know why.
It's the same selfishness.

I'm all for education. I'm all against wasting money. It looks like the only way to teach the school districts is to cut their funds and force them to use their funds in the classroom.

I've seen some online learning tools for various subjects that are better than anything I have ever seen in public schools. The cost? F-R-E-E.
Meanwhile, 15 yo 8th graders are throwing 80 Dollar Science books around like old phonebooks. That hurts.

Would anyone care to go to a school dismissal, where 98% of the students get free/reduced lunch, and observe the vehicles? Same way at the DES office. There's too much scamming going on here.
Sure the admins felt threatened. But the main reason consolidation failed was that parents in smaller, wealthier districts saw it as a way for the poor, minority districts to get at our tax base and take our money and raise our taxes to fund distant schools. Some feared redrawing of attendance boundaries and even busing. I know that was the sentiment where I live. They wanted to combine our district with some lower income districts nearby. They voted for it, we did not and it failed. That's selfishness, too, I admit.

We need a new school funding model that is fair and then the door might be open to consolidation. Since the wealthier areas have fairly decent schools and taxes would have to be increased substantially to bring poorer schools up to the standards of the affluent areas with no obvious benefit to the affluent, I wouldn't hold my breath.

As for books, our district uses online textbooks. Not exclusively, but quite a bit. I don't think they are free - the school pays a subscription because the kids login. They have internet-based skills assessment and even these "clicker" devices for taking quizzes in class. Parents can get daily online feedback on their kids progress, homework status, grades and so on. In any case, that works around here, because just about everyone has internet and home computers. I doubt that is the case in poorer areas.

Last edited by Ponderosa; 03-13-2010 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 03-13-2010, 05:13 PM
Status: "NIMBYs be gone!!!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
3,527 posts, read 4,594,653 times
Reputation: 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by wa3pnt View Post
I know that this will not be well received, but I offer it for all the people who always tout "what about the children?"

I'm 68 years old, and "I" have raised my children. I really choose not to raise everyone elses children. I put my children through parochial school K through 12 (at my expense, not the governments), and raised them to be responsible enough to seek and obtain their college through scholarships and their part time work while in college.

Was it easy? No. Especially on a Military income, but the sacrifices that we (my spouse and I) made have paid dividends in the success of our off spring. Part time jobs (on my part) and periodic employment (on the wife's part) were necessary. I didn't drive a BMW, have a texting cell phone, or wear the latest most expensive clothes, as many young parent feel are necessary (or even deserved) today.

I guess my point is that it seems today parents feel that the government should be responsible for educating their children, as opposed to undertaking that responsibility themselves. I look at my property tax bill and whince every time ANOTHER education related stipend is added.
I'm in complete agreement with everything you stated! I have been accused by a few posters as being a "child hater" and other similar generalizations simply because I'm tired of being forced to fund the upbringing of everybody else's children. Having kids is like anything else in life: it's fine if you can afford it on your own financial terms ... but if you can't, then you have no business being in the baby making business & expecting everyone else to subsidize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Sadly, you are not alone. Too many share your selfish viewpoint and that is the reason why the US children are no longer competitive with even those in developing Communist countries.
I've said it before, and I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face: what is selfish is those who have children and immediately believe they are entitled to freebies. Education should be privately run and for profit just like health care, insurance, and most other industries. Public education is not a Constitutional right, and neither is procreation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Until the "me" generation took over, we valued education. The school was the nicest building in town next to the bank. Folks pitched in with the expectation that it would be better for those who followed than it was for themselves.
That's true ... but for one thing, education way back when focussed primarily on the three Rs, and was more basic. The cost of schools was enormously less than today. Have you seen the percentage of public tax money the state budget consumes for education alone? It's right around 50%, which makes it the highest expenditure of any other public service by a LONG shot! And that's taking into consideration that Arizona supposedly ranks very low on the national scale in terms of education spending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
Amen. The explosion of entitlements in recent decades is what has led to our downfall. Everything from the government, from housing to health care. The government doesn't produce money- the producers give money to the government, to pay for entitlements. Entitlements reduce incentive, which results in fewer producers. We're in a whirlpool swirling down the drain of socialism. I hope we have enough strength to swim to safety before we drown.
Absolutely right! It really bugs the hell out of me when I hear the attitude from certain people that they are somehow "entitled" to freebies and benefits. Nobody is entitled to anything just for living, or for reproducing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
We ought to be ashamed. What happened to us on the way from Woodstock to Sun City?
Woodstock??? That was nothing more than an outdoor rock festival attended by people who just wanted to get laid and stoned (and weren't embarrassed to do it in public). Talk about selfish!

Quite honestly, I wouldn't be so opposed to public education if it was proven to actually be successful for the amount of money that is thrown into it. One of the problems is that the public school system is nothing more than a huge black hole, and more tax dollars are continuously sucked in, but the end results are the same: substandard. Furthermore, today's parents often use the schools as free daycare, and don't seem to take much interest in their children's peformance, or what they're learning. If the system were privatized, you would see a whole different set of end results, and they would be much more encouraging & positive!
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Arizona!
491 posts, read 475,978 times
Reputation: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
Today most old people are selfish to a fault. They think it is their God given right not to pay taxes to anything even though they live much better than old people did even 20 years ago.
That has to be the most stunningly ignorant statement I've read in quite awhile.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:57 AM
 
2,595 posts, read 1,966,930 times
Reputation: 904
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAU Alumni View Post
I couldn't agree more. Here in CA we spend 12k per student (second highest in the country) and yet we still have one the worst systems around. I believe the drop out rate in LA is around 50%. Charter schools are the way to go for education using tax payer dollars. Private schools provide far superior education for half the cost. It's like comparing a 250k new house to a 500k shack. The choice is obvious. LAUSD should abolished and replaced with a better system.

I attended private schools for 8 years. Public would have served me better because they offered me more learning opporunities and because of their larger size, more advanced classes. I spent the last 2 years in private schools bored out of my mind and frustrated.

Private schools do have parents that are more involved and smaller class sizes, not to mention the teachers usually work for less. Put problem kids from public schools in private ones, you're still going to have the same problems and time wasted. Latchkey kids won't magically do their homework because they're in a private school.

Don't blame the system on the socioeconomic problems that can lead to dropouts.

I'm not anti education. I have a BS myself. The citizens of the great state of Arizona helped in paying for my education. I also worked every Summer so I know what it's like to work very hard for something that is important in life. I just know there are better solutions other than constantly raising taxes.
I don't think making people with low incomes pay increased tuition rates is the better solution, do you? How much of the tuition did the state pay? How much do they pay now?
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:07 AM
 
2,595 posts, read 1,966,930 times
Reputation: 904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
I'm in complete agreement with everything you stated! I have been accused by a few posters as being a "child hater" and other similar generalizations simply because I'm tired of being forced to fund the upbringing of everybody else's children. Having kids is like anything else in life: it's fine if you can afford it on your own financial terms ... but if you can't, then you have no business being in the baby making business & expecting everyone else to subsidize it.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't be so opposed to public education if it was proven to actually be successful for the amount of money that is thrown into it. One of the problems is that the public school system is nothing more than a huge black hole, and more tax dollars are continuously sucked in, but the end results are the same: substandard. Furthermore, today's parents often use the schools as free daycare, and don't seem to take much interest in their children's peformance, or what they're learning. If the system were privatized, you would see a whole different set of end results, and they would be much more encouraging & positive!
Then think about the causes of problems, not the outcomes. if a kid doesn't go to school, or goes then doesn't do the homework because the parents don't do their job (or the parents are not home because they're working), do you really think private schools will do better?

Then think about private schools, smaller class sizes, and teachers that work for minimum wage. You're at least gonna need more teachers.

Then throw in all of the problem kids of public schools (which, most private schools have less of). How many teachers will take a nice big paycut, to teach the same problem kids?

Fans of privatization never really think about why private schools might work. They just see the word PRIVATE and see some better success rates and think it must be the magic of privatization. I attended private school and public, my wife and I have both taught in public. Public schools can succeed, if parents do their job.

Find the cause then fix the problem.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,157 posts, read 26,361,671 times
Reputation: 3660
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
The US will never be a better place. It has seen its best days and is now on a path to permanent decline- just like the UK was a few centuries ago and Rome before that. We got fat, lazy, selfish and ugly- just like they did.
I am not so sure about that............

Hitler and Tojo ca. WW II stated essentially that same thing about us (decadent playboys, etc.)---------and, looked what happened to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,157 posts, read 26,361,671 times
Reputation: 3660
Quote:
Originally Posted by homlish560 View Post
Retired or not - lots of people are here from somewhere else and came here because the Tax rates are lower, among other reasons.

California is facing nearly the same Budget problems as Arizona and they are over-taxed so much that it's impossible to keep much of what you make. Cost of Living is outrageous!!!!! That's 1 of the reasons I moved out of Cali - and being 34 y.o., I'm no Retiree!!!!!!

I want to see Arizona as a Quality-Education State too and I hate all these cuts as much as you do, but let's face it ------

Education is very costly and child-free people are paying along with everyone else to educate everyone's kids. I think it should be only the people with kids in School that pay the Education Taxes.

In no way am I a Right-wing Republican either - I don't mind paying some Taxes for Civic improvments if it amounts to just a few pennies out of the dollar.

But facts are facts - we're in a deep Recession and we all have to make Sacrifices. Smug attitudes like yours that slam Retired people won't get us anywhere!!!!!!!
I strongly disagree there since all of us benefit from an educated workforce (at least K-12)----------especially as we become older. That is one of the responsibilities of any First World society to mentor, 'civilize', and nurture our future.

BTW: I have no children.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,157 posts, read 26,361,671 times
Reputation: 3660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
I happen to be one of them. I too am a retired boomer. That doesn't blind me to what our generation has turned into - all about money and consumption and self-gratification at the expense of you-name-it. We ought to be ashamed. What happened to us on the way from Woodstock to Sun City? I think we owe the next generation the same shot at the good life we had. They may not get that - many dark clouds are gathering. But if they fail it should not be because we were too tight to pitch in another hundred bucks a year to school them.
Easy there:

Many of us Baby Boomers were 'whining' about how we could not get ahead 30 some years ago since the WW II (Greatest Generation) kept on working. It may be tougher for the younger groups since so there are so damn many of us Boomers still alive who will have to keep working till we die. Oh well.
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