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Old 05-29-2010, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
7,821 posts, read 15,312,056 times
Reputation: 6215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Annie View Post
I admit, I was very concerned about legal Hispanic immigrants and natural born citizens being profiled and asked for documentation when the original bill was signed. That was BEFORE the amendments were added. SB1070 as it now stands is a softer version of our long standing Federal Immigration law. I am much less concerned about law abiding legal citizens. The ones who should worry are illegal criminals, and rightly so. I am very much against illegal immigration and very much for legal immigration. I will be prepared to show whatever identification they deem necessary to prove my citizenship once the law goes into effect, and I will be happy to do it if doing so helps control the illegal immigration problem we have in Arizona. I am hoping we do not eventually resort to the immigration laws of our neighboring countries, now THAT would be scary. I think you are wrong about SB1070. It targets criminals.

You keep bringing up the Chandler Roundup as though it happened yesterday. There is nothing we can do about something that happened 13 years ago, except learn from the past and hopefully not make the same mistakes. Do we have ethnic profiling today, unfortunately yes we do, but you will find most people in Arizona are against harassment of any group of people solely based on the color of their skin. I think you are correct with your assessment (and I quote you...) "Most police officers will follow the law and not profile..... but the few that feel it's OK to harrass Hispanics will have a field day." But I also believe this would be true without SB1070. We have seen it. We will have to deal with those situations as they occur, not assume they will occur in all instances. Let's not (to coin an old phrase) throw the baby out with the bath water.
I could not agree more, Annie . . . VERY VALID POINTS!

 
Old 05-29-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
7,821 posts, read 15,312,056 times
Reputation: 6215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Larry View Post
In 2005 the high court gave authority to federal law enforcement officers to stop anyone to check their legal status to be in the US. They don't need Reasonable suspicion. They need no reason at all. So if you really want something to gripe about pick this law. While you are at it why don't you gripe about the most racist law ever enacted called affirmative action. Why be so selective? Al Sharpton is against racism but only if it's directed at certain people. If it's anybody else it's ok. Kind of warped in my view.
ABSOLUTELY, Old Larry . . .

Look up "racist" in the dictionary and you are certain to find a picture of either Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.
 
Old 05-29-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Wallis and Futuna
11,218 posts, read 15,275,601 times
Reputation: 16430
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckDriver33 View Post
The whole key to that analysis is "None has identification". And if none of them can prove their here legally (by providing an acceptable form of identification), then their here illegally and should be deported.
Deported to where? Mexico? What if the person isn't Mexican? How do you know which country to deport him to, if he doesn't have documentation? I mean obviously if you catch someone running the Mexican border, you can toss him back over the line. But if it's just some random hispanic in a car on a highway in the middle of Arizona with his family, and his headlight pops while he's driving at night, and the cop pulls him over for a busted headlight, and checks his ID and none of his family has any ID on them...and he has a Colorado drivers' license..

What then? Send him to Mexico on suspicion that he might be smuggling his family in? And what happens if Mister Gonzales's wife, Doctor Maria Gonzalez, was on her way back to Colorado from vacation, to perform cardiac surgery on Vale's mayor? Who's gonna explain to the Mayor of Vale, CO, that his heart surgeon was deported to a country she wasn't even born in, because her husband's car busted its headlight on their way up?

This, is the ONLY concern I have about the law. The concern that there really isn't any way to tell for sure if someone without an ID, isn't a natural-born citizen of this country and simply didn't have their ID with them - or perhaps went to the police station BECAUSE their ID was just stolen by a purse-snatcher...

Or how about the people who -are- illegals, who claim that they're citizens, and their purse was snatched and they were on their way to the PD to report the crime?

How do you know, if there's no ID?
 
Old 05-29-2010, 03:54 PM
 
700 posts, read 1,064,144 times
Reputation: 692
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
Deported to where? Mexico? What if the person isn't Mexican? How do you know which country to deport him to, if he doesn't have documentation? I mean obviously if you catch someone running the Mexican border, you can toss him back over the line. But if it's just some random hispanic in a car on a highway in the middle of Arizona with his family, and his headlight pops while he's driving at night, and the cop pulls him over for a busted headlight, and checks his ID and none of his family has any ID on them...and he has a Colorado drivers' license..

What then? Send him to Mexico on suspicion that he might be smuggling his family in? And what happens if Mister Gonzales's wife, Doctor Maria Gonzalez, was on her way back to Colorado from vacation, to perform cardiac surgery on Vale's mayor? Who's gonna explain to the Mayor of Vale, CO, that his heart surgeon was deported to a country she wasn't even born in, because her husband's car busted its headlight on their way up?

This, is the ONLY concern I have about the law. The concern that there really isn't any way to tell for sure if someone without an ID, isn't a natural-born citizen of this country and simply didn't have their ID with them - or perhaps went to the police station BECAUSE their ID was just stolen by a purse-snatcher...

Or how about the people who -are- illegals, who claim that they're citizens, and their purse was snatched and they were on their way to the PD to report the crime?

How do you know, if there's no ID?
If you have valid ID but have lost it, police officers will do what they always do in such situations: run your name and date of birth through the mobile data terminal in their patrol car. If they find you have a valid license, they will ask you a few questions (like address) to confirm you are the person who has the ID. If you have a valid DL but left your purse at home, you probably get off with a warning, or at worse get a traffic citation for operating a motor vehicle without a license. This happens all the time and is how police officers handle the situation. It's no big deal.

In the case of the unfortunate Mr. Gonzalez, simply driving with a busted tail light is insufficient reasonable suspicion to question him about his immigration status under SB 1070. There would have to be clearly observable and articulable facts (other than ethnicity) observed by the officer (which have been codified by the Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board) that would stand up in court (or in a civil suit), as recognized in past Supreme Court decisions, that would require the officer to question him further. That could include inability to speak English, a Mexican consulate ID or Mexican Voter Card on him, giving contradictory statements to officers about his residence, indicia that he is transporting drugs from Mexico, an invalid motor vehicle registration, etc. If he is not a U.S. citizen but is here legally on a visa or in Permanent Resident Alien status, he has a card which he is required by federal law to carry at all times.

As far as not knowing where to deport him, most aliens admit their country of origin, and if not, border patrol agents are usually very familiar with regional accents and can identify what country someone came from. If they have a criminal record and have re-entered the country after prior deportation (like that guy arrested up in Washington state who raped a woman after being deported NINE TIMES), their fingerprints will be on file with DHS from past arrests and their country of legal residence will be on file.

There will be some checks and balances, AnonChick - if someone is detained as an possible illegal alien, they won't just boot him across the border that night or try him for the state violation of being in the country illegally without the usual procedures under the Immigration Code and the Arizona State Code, which include a right to Habeas Corpus, an initial appearance before a magistrate who can decide if there was sufficient probable cause to arrest, an arrest warrant setting out probable cause (reviewed and signed by a judge), review by a prosecutor to see if the case merits prosecution, or grand jury indictment (based on testimony before a grand jury), a detention hearing to decide whether bail is issued, a Pre-Trial Services report that will interview friends, familiy and employers which will help further identify citizenship, a defense attorney or appointed public defender who has access to investigators to further identify citizenship, the right to a jury trial on a criminal violation, complaints filed with the police internal affairs board, with the media, with DOJ's Civil Rights Division, etc.
 
Old 05-29-2010, 04:41 PM
 
14,156 posts, read 6,412,653 times
Reputation: 6651
like azdesertbrat, i too was born and raised here, and i have no plans to move anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndianGoldEagle View Post
Staying in AZ no matter what. This is still a mostly Conservative pro 2nd Ammendment State.

What we really need is a fence along the California-Arizona border.
YES!! my brother from another mother has it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zox View Post
Some conservative residents feel the state has become increasingly liberal over the years with the influx of California residents and people from other states. Many can't identify with this state like they once did. The immigration issue has also frustrated some residents and they feel the state continues to deteriorate as a result of too many illegals moving here. 1070 has brought hope to these residents. However, if it were to be overturned, would you and others feel like that was the last straw and consider moving to a state that has less illegal immigrants and has a more conservative environment?
it is true that californians moving here and changing things is frustrating, but for the most part the state is still s center right state, though the southern part, like pima and santa cruz country, tend to be center left these days. hopefully that will change soon as liberal policies are shown to be wrong headed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azjack View Post
There is no chance of the law being removed at the state legislative level now, or in the more conservative legislatures that I expect to be elected in 2010 and 2012.

If some federal judge puts a hold on it, or a federal appellate court deems it (incorrectly) to be unconstitutional, that would hardly be a reason to move out of Arizona. Senator Pearce and his colleagues will change any problematic language, and we will simply start over again.
exactly right. even if at the federal level the law, either parts of it or its entirety, is overturned, our legislature will do what is needed to protect the citizens of arizona, and either rewrite the law, or write new law that attacks the problem from a different angle. perhaps heavy penalties for businesses that hire illegal aliens.

there is one part of the law that i dont agree with, and that is the section that allows for lawsuits against the various police agencies if it is perceived that they are not doing enough under the law. i think that puts excessive pressure on law enforcement that already does a good job overall of protecting the citizens of the state.
 
Old 05-29-2010, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
533 posts, read 479,305 times
Reputation: 699
Thousands of people began a slow march from Steele Indian School Park to the State Capitol shortly before 10 a.m. Saturday to protest Arizona's new immigration-enforcement legislation.

Read more: Thousands march in Phoenix to protest immigration law
 
Old 05-29-2010, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,898 posts, read 6,207,730 times
Reputation: 868
Another group of people had a rally supporting Arizona today at Tempe Diablo Stadium that will be going on into the evening.

Stand with Arizona Buycott draws thousands to the Valley | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Yahoo News

They are saying this should generate a lot of money for the state.
 
Old 05-29-2010, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Wallis and Futuna
11,218 posts, read 15,275,601 times
Reputation: 16430
Arizona Mike, if things happen as you say they do, then this addresses my one and only concern about the law. Things are different here in New England, but apparently not so much different than what you have posted about in Arizona. Now if I could just convince my spouse that WEST is the place to retire, not South...
 
Old 05-29-2010, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,898 posts, read 6,207,730 times
Reputation: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitem3 View Post
Thousands of people began a slow march from Steele Indian School Park to the State Capitol shortly before 10 a.m. Saturday to protest Arizona's new immigration-enforcement legislation.

Read more: Thousands march in Phoenix to protest immigration law
Sadly, they did not accomplish anything but closing down a few streets and some media attention.

Protests just don't make a difference anymore.
 
Old 05-29-2010, 05:52 PM
 
700 posts, read 1,064,144 times
Reputation: 692
Quote:
Originally Posted by azjack View Post
Well, since we are in the radical (most overturned by the Supremes) 9th Circuit, it would not surprise me if they gutted the law in such a way that this clause would be ineffective for carrying out the intent of the law. But trying to predict the 9th Circuit's decisions is difficult. Either way, Pearce and others will be there to look out for our interests to the extent that they are able to.
There's an old joke that Arizona being in the 9th Circuit is the sole reason we have case law. It seems like most of their controversial decisions involve Arizona. That being said, you're right, it's hard to predict. The U.S. Solicitor General has asked the Supreme Court to rule on the Arizona employer sanctions (pre-SB1070) law - which the 9th Curcuit found to be constitutional!
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