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the fox news video on this page shows some people traversing a wall/fence, but that video is dated 2006, very old stuff. the issue today is much worse than that. the BLM sign in that video was erected a few weeks ago, apparently warning legal U.S. citizens to stay north of I8. instead of stopping the illegals the Feds post up signs telling us legal U.S. folks to stay away. completely absurd !!!
captaincatfish[/b];14712012]I waited a LONG time before making a comment on this situation, simply because I wanted to have as many facts as necessary...
Let me say this...I am AGAINST illegal immigration...I feel as if someone enters this country with nefarious purposes in mind (i.e. criminal activity, dope dealing, trafficking in the misfortunes of their countrymen ['coyotes']) then they should be sent back across the border post haste...
When SB1070 first came out, I'll be honest...as a black man, all the hullabaloo about profiling made me stop a minute, but I kept following the stories in the news, so that I could stay informed...
But now, here's where I start asking questions, and I have a feeling you'll give me a straight answer...
1) Does law enforcement have at its' disposal, a database where info on illegals detained and deported can be accessed? One of the main concerns I had initially, was the part of the law everyone referred to as 'papers please', and I was curious to know whether the authorities could distinguish between obvious illegals, and legal, naturalized Hispanic or Mexican-American citizens, in a situation where say, folks were detained and didn't possess the proper ID/paperwork to validate their citizenship?
2) How do you feel about, say, an illegal person who has come here and actually contributed, or is contributing, something positive to the country? (case in point, the young Mexican man at Harvard who is being allowed to stay here due to a special provision of some sort)...are you calling for ALL illegals to be deported, or are you flexible on the issue of trying to do something for those who may not have entered legally, but have made positive steps since their arrival?
Something along the lines of, not an amnesty per se, but a path for them to get US citizenship? I'd really like to hear from you on this one...I agree that something needs to be done, because the situation is getting worse---but I saw your reply to greatday, and I don't know if I could totally embrace a 'shoot to kill policy'...authorize USE of force if necessary? Yes...but shoot to kill? I'm ex-military, but I'm not quite sure about that one
[quote=Home_Kid;14712108]
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan.
hired more Hispanics ??!! perhaps they were re-posted. if CBP was hiring because the applicant was Hispanic i think the long line non-Hispanic applicants would be outraged. perhaps you should clarify your statement?
captaincatfish - if you give any shortcuts to existing illegals then how do you think those who were trying to use the legal process to get here will feel. you would be allowing the issue to get worse if you give anything to existing illegals !!
[quote=AZDesertBrat;14712813]
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish
Are you aware that there is a ten year penalty for an illegal who gets deported? I wasn't, until recently, which is probably a big reason why they keep coming back illegally. They don't WANT to have to wait ten years to try again. That part of the immigration law might want to be looked into and adjusted.
I have mixed feelings about the illegals who have done really well here. I don't think it would be fair for them to be put ahead of the ones who ARE doing it all in a legal manner but I feel bad for them if they've done really well and have to be deported. Thing is I have a feeling that the number of those who DO succeed that well here are in the minority. However, I also feel that the ones who've done so well here MIGHT be good for their own country as well. If they are smart enough to do so well here why can't THEY be the beginning of something better in their own country?
Thanks Home_Kid. I've been mesmerized watching the flow! Holy Cow!
Great questions, captainfish. As much as I feel for an illegal who has done no harm to our society, I still think they should be deported and have to try the right way. Just like the Harvard kid. He should be deported since he IS here illegally. I hate to be a harda$$ but rules are rules. Same goes for Obama's auntie. They should have hauled her fanny out of the Southie projects and sent her packing back to Africa!!!
You are totally right about existing illegals, Home_Kid. They should not be given any "reward" for being in this counrty illegally! I know if I had done it the right way, I'd be very upset with this.
That's a pretty harsh length of time...10 years! Thay may be an idea, AzBrat....shorten that "punishment". I suspect they are in the minority also. Maybe whatever they do to make themselves productive is not available south of the border. Maybe. Remember....this IS supposed to be the "land of opportunity"! At least it used to be. You are right though. It would be great if they would go back home and try and make a change/difference in their country. Hundreds of people do just that....go to Harvard or wherever here, go back home to help their people. Look at what an education Osama Bin Laden got out of us!!!
This may be a little off topic but i wanted to share that Fremont Nebraska passed an ordinance today making it illegal to hire or rent to illegal immigrants. We are behind you Arizona!!!!!!
This may be a little off topic but i wanted to share that Fremont Nebraska passed an ordinance today making it illegal to hire or rent to illegal immigrants. We are behind you Arizona!!!!!!
Way to go, Fremont, Nebraska.
What's happening? . . .
Logic and Common Sense taking over the Great Country of ours?
With the ever constant threats that exist that may present concerns with regard to the security of our families, neighborhoods, and everyday lives, we have available web pages that identify criminals, persons involved in sexual assaults, the "most wanted" lists and details on persons that may be a threat to society.
Why does the USCIS/Immigration not have a similar web page for those persons that are "processed" (and photographed), with their aliases, by their officials as being illegal. The page could also include those who employ them as "risk" factors / evasion of taxes / illegal wages and the sentences they have received through the courts for their illegal conduct.
Anyone should be allowed to access the page and revise if their "employee" appears on the lists of illegals.
This would surely assist the immigration authorities on identifying illegal immigrants and their status within the country.
DBCC,
it sounds good, but who pays for such system? we would again be spending tax payer $$ on illegals, yet another $$ burden on the tax system. such system also opens up Pandora's box in terms of litigation..... what happens if somebody accidentally gets posted to the site who really didnt get busted or was not illegal??
perhaps your idea would be part of legal immigration reform.
The maximum immigration authority, would be the only one to post profiles who are the illegals list. This could be verified by Homeland Security before actually being allowed for such a posting to be made public.
Unfortunately, the price is high and salaries would have to be paid, just like they are for identifying criminals which is also a drain on the system and taxpayer, but something necessary.
I do believe that the results would be more effective at Federal level where illegal infiltrators are everywhere, not only in the southern states.
It would restrict movement, assist with identification, and restrict their activities until caught are returned to their own country, at their expense.
Any investments made by them -the illegals, - should be forfeited to the state and re-sold at auctions to then feed the coffers of much needed educational and medical expenses, crime prevention, and the men and women on the ground who need the funds to effectively combat illegal immigration.
The maximum immigration authority, would be the only one to post profiles who are the illegals list. This could be verified by Homeland Security before actually being allowed for such a posting to be made public.
Unfortunately, the price is high and salaries would have to be paid, just like they are for identifying criminals which is also a drain on the system and taxpayer, but something necessary.
I do believe that the results would be more effective at Federal level where illegal infiltrators are everywhere, not only in the southern states.
It would restrict movement, assist with identification, and restrict their activities until caught are returned to their own country, at their expense.
Any investments made by them -the illegals, - should be forfeited to the state and re-sold at auctions to then feed the coffers of much needed educational and medical expenses, crime prevention, and the men and women on the ground who need the funds to effectively combat illegal immigration.
oh boy...... thats a tall order..... ran by jughead Napolitano. you're asking for more bureaucratic red tape and asking to spend more tax payer $$.
it would be cheaper/safer for U.S. to simply buy drug runner drugs right at the border !!
Lets see if we can agree on some basic questions...
We're all talking about the same basic subject .. immigration into america,, Illegal immigration into Arizona in particular.. But its hard to seperate legal and illegal immigration, because they are opposite sides of the same coin.. And its also hard to seperate illegal immigation into Arizona from illegal immigration into america in general, because national federal law is central in Arizona's legal situation.. If we can't agree on the basics of legal immigration, then we'll never be able to reach an agreement on illegal immigration.. into Arizona or america.
.
America is changing .. changing DRASTICALLY .. and changing at a speed that not only ISN'T MANAGABLE, that not only ISN'T NATURAL, but that is also FAR FASTER than any society can be expected to cope with.. As much as some people want to believe that life can be planned out on a piece of paper and people's behavior will just fall into step .. the rest of us still have to deal with human nature.. And it is NOT human nature for a society to simply reverse itself overnight.. Especially when half of that society is against the change.. But however ANY of us may feel about the america of today .. its still our home .. and WE HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM on our hands.. But before we can effectively deal with the problem .. or even effectively discuss it .. we have to all be playing the same game, with the same rules, and the same language.. And at the moment .. we aren't......
As everyone knows .. if you ask 20 different people, you'll get 20 different opinions.. No matter HOW BASIC the question.. The days of america being of mostly one mind on a subject, with the welfare of america as a country being the important consideration, are over.. And they're never coming back.. America is culturally fractured .. (and not accidentally, some of us believe) .. and that will never change either.. But we still need to work together, so we're gonna HAVE TO at least ALL be on the same page, in the same rule book, playing the same game.. So there are a few very basic ideas we need to address together .. and hopefully come to mutual agreement on.. Because if we can't come to terms on the most basic ideas .. then a national, or even Arizona wide, united front will be impossible..
Alot of people are saying all that matters is that the legal process is run.. And that the process should be refined and shortened so the ones "doing it right" can get in easier.. That opens up the first question:
1.) For who's benefit should america's immigration laws be written..
.... Should people have to prove they have something we NEED, to be let in.. If no, then why not?
.
.... Should people have to speak english to immigrate.. If no, then why not?.. Why would we WANT anyone who doesn't speak english..
.... If our immigration laws are supposed to be "fair" to foreigners, then WHY? .. Are people to be let in to america for OUR benefit or THEIRS..
2.) Do people in other countries have a RIGHT to come to america, whether they will benefit america or not .. whether america WANTS them or not.
.... Do we let people with NO needed skills, and NO english skills, and NO financial resources, and NO education, .. and who we KNOW will be on government assistance .. immigrate to america simply because they WANT TO ?.. ( and that is a group of people which would include a sizable percentage, if not a majority, of the world.)
.... Is our only criteria that they simply "go through the process" ?.. If that's true, then that means it doesn't matter HOW MANY people america has.. or the hardship the population size, lack of individual contributions, or percentage on government assistance has on america..... OR it means you don't think america has ENOUGH people..
3.) If you think we DON'T have enough people .. and can't produce enough population growth on our own .. then .. HOW MANY PEOPLE DOES AMERICA NEED?
.... We have over 300 million people now .. and can't take care of THOSE.. We will most likely be near 500 million in 50 years .. (most of them with their hand out) .. without even ONE more immigrant..
.... Is there a number, or a point, at which america will be "full".. or do you NOT envision such a point.
And PLEASE don't talk about what we did in the past.. This is NOW.. What happened in the past is NO justification for actions taken now..
And please dont' pretend new immigrants are a positive for the economy.. For every dollar they spend in sales tax or on goods .. they get back several in refunds of the income tax they had deducted, tax credits which give them extra cash back BEYOND what the paid in, and government benefits.. Plus send cash back to their home country as opposed to spending it in america..
These are questions about immigration policy .. now...... And there's only 3 questions..
1.) For who's benefit should america's immigration laws be written..
.... Should people have to prove they have something we NEED, to be let in.. If no, then why not?
.
.... Should people have to speak english to immigrate.. If no, then why not?.. Why would we WANT anyone who doesn't speak english..
.... If our immigration laws are supposed to be "fair" to foreigners, then WHY? .. Are people to be let in to america for OUR benefit or THEIRS..
~~~
Yes, they should have something we need. We already have enough Americans who don't and have to support them, we don't need more people without the necessary skills to survive in this country. Even landscaping is a skill that can and is used to survive. They should speak English. It is the language that our country was founded on and that we speak now.
2.) Do people in other countries have a RIGHT to come to america, whether they will benefit america or not .. whether america WANTS them or not.
.... Do we let people with NO needed skills, and NO english skills, and NO financial resources, and NO education, .. and who we KNOW will be on government assistance .. immigrate to america simply because they WANT TO ?.. ( and that is a group of people which would include a sizable percentage, if not a majority, of the world.)
.... Is our only criteria that they simply "go through the process" ?.. If that's true, then that means it doesn't matter HOW MANY people america has.. or the hardship the population size, lack of individual contributions, or percentage on government assistance has on america..... OR it means you don't think america has ENOUGH people..
Unfortunately we have to draw the line sometime. We don't make laws to come into this country just so that people can walk all over them and come here anyhow (despite what some think). Laws are made to be upheld. Making exceptions to the laws is a disservice to those who make and uphold those laws. While those current immigration laws may need to be reworked, people should still respect our country enough to do it the right way. I do not think people have a "right" to come to our country to live just because they want to.
Come here as a tourist, come here to visit and then go home, or go through the legal process to become a citizen if you want to become an American.
3.) If you think we DON'T have enough people .. and can't produce enough population growth on our own .. then .. HOW MANY PEOPLE DOES AMERICA NEED?
.... We have over 300 million people now .. and can't take care of THOSE.. We will most likely be near 500 million in 50 years .. (most of them with their hand out) .. without even ONE more immigrant..
.... Is there a number, or a point, at which america will be "full".. or do you NOT envision such a point.
I think there will be a point when we will have to say no more. Our resources can only go so far. Not just money wise, but food wise, and land wise as well. Especially if we want to keep our forests, deserts, and national lands free of condos, homes and apartments.
You made a good point about the American culture changing. I agree with this and think it is even more so here in the desert southwest. I've traveled much across the country and can see it.
I had a friend who came here from South Africa with her husband on a certain Visa. She went to pharmaceutical school and graduated. Worked while in school and then became a Pharmacist right out of school. Her husband was not able to work here because of the Visa limitations, but she was still able to provide for them both. They bought a home and assimilated into our existing American culture. She has a green card and last I heard they were working on becoming citizens.
She is the type of person we want to migrate to our country. I don't expect every immigrant who comes here to be a Pharmacist, but to still be able to contribute in a positive way to our society and hold their own. It can be done if they truly want to become American citizens. You don't have to make 100k a year to live well in this country.
I have nothing to hide or hide from. Please don't deem to think you know what I would or would not think/feel. If profiling me would help secure my country, I would not mind being profiled.
If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't be upset.
Are you nuts? I didn't say anything of the sort. I said WE don't have a problem with too many Mexicans here, yet. Brazilians and other SA illegals.
you obviously have never been profiled before so you dont know how it feels-believe me if you were profiled all your life you wouldnt like it. no one does
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That's a pretty harsh length of time...10 years! Thay may be an idea, AzBrat....shorten that "punishment". I suspect they are in the minority also. Maybe whatever they do to make themselves productive is not available south of the border. Maybe. Remember....this IS supposed to be the "land of opportunity"! At least it used to be. You are right though. It would be great if they would go back home and try and make a change/difference in their country. Hundreds of people do just that....go to Harvard or wherever here, go back home to help their people. Look at what an education Osama Bin Laden got out of us!!! 
Lets see if we can agree on some basic questions...
