[Nomadicus]

A few years back when in a technical writing class we were told by the prof that a lot of publications as in newspapers were written at the 7th grade level to make them easier for all to comprehend. Being more math oriented I know I often butcher the king's English but 50 years from now I think it will be overlooked. I do try even in private emails with family to use good grammar and spelling as a habit so when I do need to be a little on the sharp side maybe I will not fall on my face.

[Bull Winkus]

Originally Posted by luvarkansas

<snip>

Here is something I've noticed lately that bugs me....tell me what you think about it. I read a lot of gardening magazines, and they've all taken to saying "backyard". Like this...."And in the backyard you will find many beautiful shrubs." I've always thought that, used in that context, it would be "back yard". It would only be "backyard" when it was being used as an adjective, before another word...."a backyard patio", for example. What do you think?

<snip>

That's a hard one to call. In fact, I'm not even sure what that's called. The taking of two words and cramming them together to form one with a missing letter or two is called a conjunction. (isn't for is not, I'm for I am, etc...) If both words still have all their letters, like backyard, is it still a conjunction? Anywho ... there are hundreds of such combinations in popular use today, and it seem the list just keeps getting longer. I doubt there is a rule for when and when not to separate the two except perhaps in formal writing. In that venu I think the rule is to keep the separation unless the joined form is in such common use as to make the unjoined form sound unnatural.

But, you want to know what I think about that usage, I think. I think you're on to something in that as an adjective it sounds OK, whereas, as the object of a preposition it does not seem quite right. But, that may matter only if the author prefers the piece to sound more formal. Saying "And in the back yard you will find many beautiful shrubs." is more specific, and conforms to original English. The conjunctive expression (if conjunctive is the right term) would be a derivative and would therefore be less formal. All IMHO of course.

[RogMar]

Originally Posted by Bull Winkus

The conjunctive expression (if conjunctive is the right term) would be a derivative and would therefore be less formal. All IMHO of course.

Y'all are on a hillbilly forum talkin' bout conjunctive expression???

Next thing ya know....you'll be wearing pomeade and spats.

[Bull Winkus]

Dapper Dan! Dapper Dan, not Pomeade.

[Bull Winkus]

Originally Posted by Nomadicus

A few years back when in a technical writing class we were told by the prof that a lot of publications as in newspapers were written at the 7th grade level to make them easier for all to comprehend. Being more math oriented I know I often butcher the king's English but 50 years from now I think it will be overlooked. I do try even in private emails with family to use good grammar and spelling as a habit so when I do need to be a little on the sharp side maybe I will not fall on my face.

50 years from now, not only will it be overlooked, it'll be lost in a vast sea of digital alphabet soup.

It's true that newspaper copy is dumbed down to the 7 grade level, kinda, mostly. But the 7th grade level is kinda, mostly what we all use with each other under casual writing circumstances. And since the speaking vocabulary lags the written one by a couple of grades, there's no point in the papers trying to put out anything that would strain the capacity of the average man for abstract thought, even though the reading vocabulary is usually about 2 grades above the writing one.

At least those are the impressions I gained on the growing up side of life. "If that ain't the consensus view, then hell, let's put it to a vote."*

I don't fault anyone for writing with bad spelling, poor punctuation or sloppy sentence structure as long as their message gets through. After all it's really about the communications, isn't it? The thing I find mildly annoying is trying to read someone's writing with all caps or all lower case. It's painful trying to extract the meaning, and it just shows a general lack of consideration for the person on the other end of the writing. But, I do think that one should put forth a little effort to try and get it right. After all, they are pressing the keys while forming all those important thoughts. Why not go the extra mile and do the best you can?

A thought is so fleeting.
It comes and it goes.
To record those feelings
is something to know.
To lay down words
by pen and by ink
says this unto all,
"By God, ... I think!"

Bull
-=-=-=-=-

*Ulysses Everett McGill

[luvarkansas]

Originally Posted by Bull Winkus

That's a hard one to call. In fact, I'm not even sure what that's called. The taking of two words and cramming them together to form one with a missing letter or two is called a conjunction. (isn't for is not, I'm for I am, etc...)

That would be a contraction. Backyard would not be a contraction. And putting it together like that would, I think, follow the same rule as for hyphenated words....example, "The leaves on the tree were blood red." No hyphen in this usage. But, when the words come before the noun...."The blood-red leaves were beautiful."....that's when it is hyphenated. In my mind, "back yard/backyard" would follow the same principle. You know what, I just decided to see what I could find on Google, and I found an excerpt from a book about journalism. It said that when it is used as a noun it is two words (He went into my back yard.) and when it is used as an adjective it is one word. (He sat on my backyard porch.) Just as I suspected. lol It also had the example of hyphenated words following the same principle...their example was "He works full time." (noun) and "He has a full-time job." (adjective)

And to answer the "50 years from now who'll care?" question....true, and that's one reason why I do not correct people on forums (usually....this was just a case of it striking me as funny about the spell check not catching a wrong-word usage in a post talking about spell-checkers). But, I think that people who publish newspapers, magazines, books, etc., who make their living with words, should know their craft. Another reason is this....we actually learn to spell correctly partly by reading things all our lives that are correctly spelled....then when we see something spelled wrong, we recognize it. And for some reason, I do think it is important for people to know how to spell correctly, but I'm not sure why. I'll have to ask my therapist (just kidding).

Oh, and conjunctions are words such as "and" or "or" or "but" that join words or phrases or clauses together.

So now that you've all branded me a tiresome know-it-all, I'll slink off and not bring spelling and grammar up ever again.

[Nomadicus]

Originally Posted by luvarkansas

And to answer the "50 years from now who'll care?"

I should have been more specific with the "50 years from now". 50 years from now I will not care about my grammar errors....

[Bull Winkus]

Originally Posted by luvarkansas

<snip>

I think that people who publish newspapers, magazines, books, etc., who make their living with words, should know their craft. Another reason is this....we actually learn to spell correctly partly by reading things all our lives that are correctly spelled....then when we see something spelled wrong, we recognize it. And for some reason, I do think it is important for people to know how to spell correctly, but I'm not sure why. I'll have to ask my therapist (just kidding).

<snip>

Thanks for the English lessons, luvarkansas. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. I hope I'll remember it this time, or at least remember that I don't know.

About what I bolded in your quote above: Well put! And the same goes for grammar and punctuation.

It's for the same reason we standardize on the length of an inch, foot or yard (that again?). Even with all our efforts to standardize our language into a uniform communications medium, it still slowly changes as each succeeding generation takes its toll in both getting it wrong and customizing it to their own use. Just try to read Geoffrey Chaucer, an English author from the late 14th century.

Line
Original Translation
This frere bosteth that he knoweth helle, This friar boasts that he knows hell,
And God it woot, that it is litel wonder; And God knows that it is little wonder;
Freres and feendes been but lyte asonder. Friars and fiends are seldom far apart.
For, pardee, ye han ofte tyme herd telle For, by God, you have ofttimes heard tell
How that a frere ravyshed was to helle How a friar was taken to hell
In spirit ones by a visioun; In spirit, once by a vision;
And as an angel ladde hym up and doun, And as an angel led him up and down,
To shewen hym the peynes that the were, To show him the pains that were there,
In al the place saugh he nat a frere; In the whole place he saw not one friar;
Of oother folk he saugh ynowe in wo. He saw enough of other folk in woe.
Unto this angel spak the frere tho: To the angel spoke the friar thus:
Now, sire, quod he, han freres swich a grace "Now sir", said he, "Do friars have such a grace
That noon of hem shal come to this place? That none of them come to this place?"
Yis, quod this aungel, many a millioun! "Yes", said the angel, "many a million!"
And unto sathanas he ladde hym doun. And the angel led him down to Satan.
--And now hath sathanas,--seith he,--a tayl He said, "And Satan has a tail,
Brodder than of a carryk is the sayl. Broader than a large ship's sail.
Hold up thy tayl, thou sathanas!--quod he; Hold up your tail, Satan!" said he.
--shewe forth thyn ers, and lat the frere se "Show forth your arse, and let the friar see
Where is the nest of freres in this place!-- Where the nest of friars is in this place!"
And er that half a furlong wey of space, And before half a furlong of space,
Right so as bees out swarmen from an hyve, Just as bees swarm from a hive,
Out of the develes ers ther gonne dryve Out of the devil's arse there were driven
Twenty thousand freres on a route, Twenty thousand friars on a rout,
And thurghout helle swarmed al aboute, And throughout hell swarmed all about,
And comen agayn as faste as they may gon, And came again as fast as they could go,
And in his ers they crepten everychon. And every one crept back into his arse.
He clapte his tayl agayn and lay ful stille. He shut his tail again and lay very still.

Original e-text available online at the University of Virginia website

Geoffrey Chaucer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, everybody do your part. ... OK? ... Larn how to spell. ... OK? ... Fifty years from now somebody might care. ... Six hundred years from now it could really confuse 'em. ... ... OK?

[geekduo]

Having never read Chaucer, I have to say, I don't know how you can manage to read that! I thought modern day teenagers were bad. I hate all the bad spelling and grammer that is rampant these days. I blame texting and instant messaging.

[Bull Winkus]

You can't really appreciate the amount of change in the language from Middle English to now without hearing it. Witness the Prologue to The Canterbury Tales in Middle English:


YouTube - The Canterbury Tales Prologue in Middle English

A side by side translation:

Medieval Sourcebook: Geoffrey Chaucer: The Canterbury Tales : Prologue [Parallel Texts]