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Old 10-12-2010, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
346 posts, read 387,226 times
Reputation: 163

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Quote:
Originally Posted by snehpetselyk View Post
Who says that? You hope freedom never comes to China? Why don't we let the Chinese people decide that. You can stay in your "freedomless democratic" nation; thanks to American "propoganda". What does that even mean?
1) Take up the dictionary and look up what "" (quotation marks) means.
2) The Chinese are free (regardless of what you brainwashed Americans think).
3) It means that in previous system more or less everything functioned ok, but we weren't allowed to sing some nazi songs and similar garbage (we didn't have "freedom of speech" in regards to such things), but now more or less nothing functions properly, but we are allowed to sing those silly songs.
4) American propaganda (in our case) = we were told by our politicians (who were funded by the CIA) a lot of silly things (that of course never happened), like the following: "After get rid of the evil Serbs who are robbing us, everybody will have a big house and several cars like in America", "Once we get rid of the evil Serbs who are robbing us, every family will get thousands of Deutsche Marks every month just from tourism", "As soon as we leave the "dungeon of nations", our diaspora will send us 10 billions USD the same day", "As soon as we leave Yugoslavia, we will be like Switzerland", etc.

Or just to summarize everything in one sentence: We went from being an independent nation during the rule of the "evil" communists to being ******* of the E.U. and America after we received "freedom".

So, I hope that the Chinese never become "free", because being "free" means being a colony and ***** of the USA, but I am confident that the Chinese people (and leadership) are not as stupid as the Yugoslav people (and leadership) were to allow their country to be destroyed by American propaganda and financing of domestic traitors (which this scumbag who won the Nobel prize most definitely is, just reading his quote about China needing to be colonized by the West for at least 300 years to become a "civilized" "democratic" first World nation proves/shows this). China is free and it will stay free, regardless of the wishes of you Americans. Long live the People's Republic of China.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
202 posts, read 504,288 times
Reputation: 210
@Purger: Have you considered moving to North Korea? I think you might be happy there.
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
202 posts, read 504,288 times
Reputation: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylily View Post
when talking about China, one great topic is culture, another will be the political problem. but seems a few people can really say: I like Chinese,Chinese people make our life better.

sometimes ,I'm really in a great dout whether we are right to change so quickly. from the year 1978,we open our door again ,to do business with foreigners, give them very good policy ,they really earn much money from China. but what's the result? environment be greatly harmed, resoused be too much used, labors always have very low salary to support the family, the most worse thing is ,our goods at last is famous of the low price ,the bad quality ,no brand value ,low profit.
Chinese seems to be a looser in the international trade.
but ,Chinese goods help many people to save money, have a better life.
we are always enjoy a surplus in in the international trade, especially with America, so ,we are a winner ? no ,I don't think so , we really earn a lot of US dollars ,but ,it's our government earn ,not our Chinese people earn. international trade don't give Chinese labors too much good except a job ,a job with very low salary ,continous over-time working ,no rest ,far away from family , bad health in very bad working condition.
and with the continious devalution of US dollars ,our government is also somehow a loser in the international trade.

now there are many problem in China, in my opinion ,it's very serious now.
house price too high ,extremely high , vegetable price continue increasing all the time, the price of everything is increasing , milk problem , food safely problem, environment problem ,no job for graduate colleges , serious corruption.

but ,it only happens in China? what's the cause for all that problems?
I think , it 's becuase we are too poor in the past 30years. when you americans can enjoy the the peace at home after the second world war, we are still suffering from
the civil war, after we at last have peace ,we then suffer from many stupid policies by our government. then ,the real time ,we begin to develop, is from year 1978.

what are you enjoying in your country in the year 1978? what we Chinese suffer, is still hungry. very hungry.

we are trying our best to develop , to avoid hungry in the future. even I'm wondering the way is right or not ,we are still developing from the better side.

if we don't develop, what will be the result in the world? we will be a great burden for all the world, like Africa, can you image?

in order to develop ,we lose many things ,many good values , but ,I still believe Chinese are diligent ,we are not living comfortable now ,but we are still in the process to live better.

I know ,we made many mistakes in the development process in the last 30 years. we are now begin to suffering from the mistakes. it's Chinese suffering the most.

about the Taiwan problem , let's go to politicians. it's in fact , a "family" problem . no one can judy a family problem clearly if you are not in that family.
Hi Happylily

I think you make many excellent points about the conditions of your people and China's relationship with the world. I think you and I can agree that the current situation between my country and yours is not very healthy and needs a lot of work.

Please don't think that just because I don't like your government that I also don't like your people. That is not the case, you are human beings and deserve our respect.

I agree that it will take time for China to grow and develop, but this will only happen if its citizens demand to be full participants in China's future. Your government and the corporations that are getting rich off of your hard labor will not just give it to you. You will need to struggle for it, peacefully if possible.

That is how it's done. We know that, as do the Poles, the Czechs, the Romanians, and any other people that are tired of having their pockets picked and their human rights denied them. Sitting there quietly waiting for some lowlife politicians and business managers to suddenly act like decent people will get you nowhere.

I truly hope you succeed in this. China is too big and too important to the rest of the world for it to be pursuing a failed communist dream.

As to Taiwan being a "family problem", that doesn't mean the rest of the world can't weigh in. Taiwan has many friends, the USA included, and we're not going to stand idly by if China tries to bully them, any more than a responsible person would fail to aid his neighbor if he were in danger.

Last edited by elcoyoteloco; 10-12-2010 at 02:24 PM..
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:25 AM
 
26 posts, read 62,080 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcoyoteloco View Post
Hi Happylily

I think you make many excellent points about the conditions of your people and China's relationship with the world. I think you and I can agree that the current situation between my country and yours is not very healthy and needs a lot of work.

Please don't think that just because I don't like your government that I also don't like your people. That is not the case, you are human beings and deserve our respect.

I agree that it will take time for China to grow and develop, but this will only happen if its citizens demand to be full participants in China's future. Your government and the corporations that are getting rich off of your hard labor will not just give it to you. You will need to struggle for it, peacefully if possible.

That is how it's done. We know that, as do the Poles, the Czechs, the Romanians, and any other people that are tired of having their pockets picked and their human rights denied them. Sitting there quietly waiting for some lowlife politicians and business managers to suddenly act like decent people will get you nowhere.

I truly hope you succeed in this. China is too big and too important to the rest of the world for it to be pursuing a failed communist dream.

As to Taiwan being a "family problem", that doesn't mean the rest of the world can't weigh in. Taiwan has many friends, the USA included, and we're not going to stand idly by if China tries to bully them, any more than a responsible person would fail to aid his neighbor if he were in danger.
I really love a book, named<pride and predudice>. I'm wondering if you have read them. it's really a very good book. in the past ,I always think I'm clever enough to read people's ideals ,to judy others , but now ,I really don't think so. what we know ,maybe all controled. If I cannot speak English ,I will never know foreigner's opinion about taiwan problem,about China. because all we know are what our government allow us to know if I just get info in Chinese. history are all written by people, so maybe your history book about China are greatly different with ours. but ,what is right ,what is wrong ,how to say it?

I love American movies , so when I talking about America,I prefer to think some great movies, green farmland, Chrismas, hehehe ,I love them so much. so ,when you talk about China, maybe you can share something about Chinese writing ,drawing ,any other thing you like.

why always Taiwan problem? to make everyone nervous.
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
202 posts, read 504,288 times
Reputation: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylily View Post
I really love a book, named<pride and predudice>. I'm wondering if you have read them. it's really a very good book. in the past ,I always think I'm clever enough to read people's ideals ,to judy others , but now ,I really don't think so. what we know ,maybe all controled. If I cannot speak English ,I will never know foreigner's opinion about taiwan problem,about China. because all we know are what our government allow us to know if I just get info in Chinese. history are all written by people, so maybe your history book about China are greatly different with ours. but ,what is right ,what is wrong ,how to say it?

I love American movies , so when I talking about America,I prefer to think some great movies, green farmland, Chrismas, hehehe ,I love them so much. so ,when you talk about China, maybe you can share something about Chinese writing ,drawing ,any other thing you like.

why always Taiwan problem? to make everyone nervous.
Of course, I can't criticize your government's conduct towards its neighbors without recognizing that America has also caused its share of grief over the years. But you asked about why Taiwan concerns us, so here's my personal opinion.

All other political issues aside, I think what bothers many of us about the Taiwan situation is that we don't trust your government to act fairly towards them. I think this concern is partly due to the occupation of Tibet, the Chinese government's ongoing disrespect towards the Dalai Lama, its policies towards the Uighur population, and its ongoing support of the North Korea and Somalia regimes. My personal feeling is that Taiwan's desire to remain independent should be respected.

As far as media depictions of China, the last movie I saw about China was "City of Life and Death", which was about the atrocities committed by the Japanese army in Nanjing during WWII. I was horrified, to say the least, and I'm disgusted by the Japanese government's unwillingness to accept full responsibility for their monstrous treatment of China during the war.

Watching that film, and having learned a bit about China's history of being exploited and abused by outsiders, I think I can understand why China has a certain level of distrust towards other countries. However, we can't let fear and paranoia dictate our actions. That's what leads a victim down the path towards becoming a monster themselves.

We in the USA have the opposite problem: we think we're so righteous and powerful that we don't need the help or advice of other countries, and we can do whatever we like in the world without suffering any consequences. This arrogance has been getting us into a lot of trouble lately, as I'm sure you've heard.

I think this is a problem we share, the USA and China. We both have a very difficult time working with and respecting other cultures, which causes us both a lot of headaches!
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:37 AM
 
26 posts, read 62,080 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcoyoteloco View Post
Of course, I can't criticize your government's conduct towards its neighbors without recognizing that America has also caused its share of grief over the years. But you asked about why Taiwan concerns us, so here's my personal opinion.

All other political issues aside, I think what bothers many of us about the Taiwan situation is that we don't trust your government to act fairly towards them. I think this concern is partly due to the occupation of Tibet, the Chinese government's ongoing disrespect towards the Dalai Lama, its policies towards the Uighur population, and its ongoing support of the North Korea and Somalia regimes. My personal feeling is that Taiwan's desire to remain independent should be respected.

As far as media depictions of China, the last movie I saw about China was "City of Life and Death", which was about the atrocities committed by the Japanese army in Nanjing during WWII. I was horrified, to say the least, and I'm disgusted by the Japanese government's unwillingness to accept full responsibility for their monstrous treatment of China during the war.

Watching that film, and having learned a bit about China's history of being exploited and abused by outsiders, I think I can understand why China has a certain level of distrust towards other countries. However, we can't let fear and paranoia dictate our actions. That's what leads a victim down the path towards becoming a monster themselves.

We in the USA have the opposite problem: we think we're so righteous and powerful that we don't need the help or advice of other countries, and we can do whatever we like in the world without suffering any consequences. This arrogance has been getting us into a lot of trouble lately, as I'm sure you've heard.

I think this is a problem we share, the USA and China. We both have a very difficult time working with and respecting other cultures, which causes us both a lot of headaches!
In China, if a foreigner can speak some Chinese ,even they speak very Poor, we will be very ,very happy. but maybe in America, it's really a very ,very normal thing. Do you know the reason? because we are desired to be understood.

many foreigners ,when come to China, the first words is always: this is so different with what I think.

do you know why?

a little tired of explain. but ,believe me ,I'm friendly , if you want to know more about China, you can ask me. if you always foucus on the political problems about China, you will miss many good things. If you have time ,you can visit our Xizang , you will find the truth. it will be really a great travel for you. believe me.
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
202 posts, read 504,288 times
Reputation: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylily View Post
In China, if a foreigner can speak some Chinese ,even they speak very Poor, we will be very ,very happy. but maybe in America, it's really a very ,very normal thing. Do you know the reason? because we are desired to be understood.
Unfortunately, it's hard to get respect in America if you don't speak fluent English, nor do most Americans care to know what's going on in the world. We can be very arrogant and ignorant at the same time, I'm embarrassed to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylily View Post
many foreigners ,when come to China, the first words is always: this is so different with what I think. do you know why?
I can't speak for other countries, but here in the USA we very rarely hear anything positive about China. What we hear is mostly bad news about trade problems. On the other hand, Chinese products are everywhere because they are so inexpensive.

But you should understand that our television news channels (CNN, FOX, MSNBC) are horribly incompetent. They don't care about accuracy or objectivity, they're only interested in making money by sensationalizing and exaggerating the news. Fortunately, we have access to professional news agencies like BBC, PBS, and NPR that for the most part try to do a good job. And of course, unlike in China, we have unrestricted access to the internet.

And again, don't be surprised if you meet Americans who don't know anything about China. Many of us don't care to learn about the rest of the world. Sad, but true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylily View Post
a little tired of explain. but ,believe me ,I'm friendly , if you want to know more about China, you can ask me. if you always foucus on the political problems about China, you will miss many good things. If you have time ,you can visit our Xizang , you will find the truth. it will be really a great travel for you. believe me.
By Xizang you mean Tibet, right? I doubt I'll ever visit there. It would break my heart to see what your government has done to that country and its people. But I would like to visit China someday. There's a lot about your many cultures (and foods!) to admire and respect.

By the way, here's a story that was published in the NY Times today that's pertains to our discussion:
Former Communist Officials in China Demand Media Freedom
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Old 10-13-2010, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Texas
209 posts, read 493,026 times
Reputation: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by happylily View Post
In China, if a foreigner can speak some Chinese ,even they speak very Poor, we will be very ,very happy. but maybe in America, it's really a very ,very normal thing. Do you know the reason? because we are desired to be understood.

many foreigners ,when come to China, the first words is always: this is so different with what I think.

do you know why?
When you say "foreigner" do you mean any foreigner, a non-Asian foreigner, or a white person?

I ask because what you say is true. I'm a white guy and can say the dumbest, most simple phrase in Chinese, and just about every Chinese person will coo and tell me how good my Chinese is, even though it's horrible. But, does the average Chinese person find it equally impressive when a Korean or Japanese, for example, speaks Chinese? Or someone from Africa or India?

As another poster said, the US media is quite negative about China. Americans' ideas of China are influenced by this. However, I'm eager to know what surprises Americans the most about China. Do they tell you?

The first place in China I ever saw was Beijing, in December 2002. I was amazed at how modern it seemed with all the freeways and nice buildings. (Of course, I'd just arrived from four months of living in Ulan Baatar.) The next time I saw China was when I moved here. I arrived in Nanjing in July 2006. My first impression was the incredible heat. I had read about Nanjing's being one of the "Furnaces of the Yangtze", but I was not prepared for it. And I'm from Houston.

S
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:17 AM
 
1,809 posts, read 3,110,873 times
Reputation: 1989
I've read this Wikipedia article and found it interesting: Asian values - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think freedom must be one of the most loaded words in most languages and cultures. I don't think an objective definition can be reached, and I most definitely believe that not a single country can really, in all seriousness, erect itself as a free country made up of free individuals. If we agree that freedom might mean absence of coercion, it should be one of the most used and less (if ever) practiced concepts ever.

Yes, communist systems place more value on the collective than on the individual, while capitalism purports to defend the individual. Neither one nor the other have done a great job, but since I've never lived in a communist place I'd like to focus on capitalist countries. How can someone be a free individual if he is burdened with debt, working for someone else, his point of view being designed by the media (I don't care whether there's just one news source or 100: it doesn't matter, in the end, if truly the editorial interests are rigidly set), his participation in society being limited to casting a vote (the election being between a handful of virtually equivalent parties) every four years and maybe giving random, innocuous opinions here and there... ?

Yes, we can all think freely, but can we speak freely? Not really, unless you don't mind being surveyed, your phone line tapped, your house and computer files searched through without your permission, and maybe you'll even be put in jail (I'm thinking of Holocaust revisionists -and no, I'm not one of them: it's merely a paradigmatic example-). And, of course, we can't act freely, because laws forbid us from it, and not few of those laws on purely moral/ethic grounds. It's all in the name of collective interest or hypothetical individuals. As is the case in communist countries.

I don't think a single political system, which IMO is little more than economic administration, is the better option for every country on Earth. Cultural values differ and demographics are a factor to consider, as are natural resources. So maybe China also has room to improve, but let them do it at their own pace and their own way.
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
202 posts, read 504,288 times
Reputation: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by noela View Post
I've read this Wikipedia article and found it interesting: Asian values - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think freedom must be one of the most loaded words in most languages and cultures. I don't think an objective definition can be reached, and I most definitely believe that not a single country can really, in all seriousness, erect itself as a free country made up of free individuals. If we agree that freedom might mean absence of coercion, it should be one of the most used and less (if ever) practiced concepts ever.

Yes, communist systems place more value on the collective than on the individual, while capitalism purports to defend the individual. Neither one nor the other have done a great job, but since I've never lived in a communist place I'd like to focus on capitalist countries. How can someone be a free individual if he is burdened with debt, working for someone else, his point of view being designed by the media (I don't care whether there's just one news source or 100: it doesn't matter, in the end, if truly the editorial interests are rigidly set), his participation in society being limited to casting a vote (the election being between a handful of virtually equivalent parties) every four years and maybe giving random, innocuous opinions here and there... ?

Yes, we can all think freely, but can we speak freely? Not really, unless you don't mind being surveyed, your phone line tapped, your house and computer files searched through without your permission, and maybe you'll even be put in jail (I'm thinking of Holocaust revisionists -and no, I'm not one of them: it's merely a paradigmatic example-). And, of course, we can't act freely, because laws forbid us from it, and not few of those laws on purely moral/ethic grounds. It's all in the name of collective interest or hypothetical individuals. As is the case in communist countries.

I don't think a single political system, which IMO is little more than economic administration, is the better option for every country on Earth. Cultural values differ and demographics are a factor to consider, as are natural resources. So maybe China also has room to improve, but let them do it at their own pace and their own way.
Contrary to what most Americans think, I don't consider us a particularly good example of a democratic society, in the sense that its citizens care about each others' welfare and considers all members equal. For that you'd have to look at Sweden, Norway, etc.

The ugly fact is, here in the USA we're comprised of many very competitive groups, who in many cases actively dislike each other, which is why so many of us are hostile towards public medical care and other social programs.

As far as "freedom" goes, one of my personal gauges of freedom is having access to as much information as possible. While there is an incredible amount of nonsense spewed out by the media, we do still have access to as many sources as we care to listen to. In that sense, America and other free-market democracies are very free. China and the other communist states are most decidedly not, nor are the theocratic states of the Muslim world.

The other gauge is, of course, freedom of expression, which is much harder to pin down because so much depends on the moral standards of each society. The extremely important difference is that free-market democracies are for the most part self-censoring, with competing moral standards that are very fluid and change quite often. In communist and theocratic states, the censorship comes from a select few that dictates morality, and they can be violently hostile towards any changes in those standards.

Anyway, sorry if I'm straying from the point of this thread, which is supposed to be about China. It's just that it's hard to talk about China without considering the impression its government makes on the rest of the world.
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