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Old 02-26-2012, 01:20 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 13,162,570 times
Reputation: 6447
They are a mountainous people. I'm descended from mountain people myself and mountainous cultures are sometimes a bit isolationist and wary of "foreigners." At least my ancestors were at times and before the Communists came in the 1970s Afghanistan had a history of being non-aligned.

Their rates of literacy is relatively low and poverty relatively high. Poor illiterate peoples likely go by "word of mouth" a bit more. So gossip and conspiracies may, in some cases, be more common among them.

Much of the Islamic world feels that they should be self-sufficient. That non-Muslims helping them, including less arguable cases of "help" like the troops in the 1990s protecting Bosnian Muslims from Serbs, is embarrassing. It's simply a reminder they're weak or feel weak. (I almost listed tsunami relief, but I think practically all Muslims accept the idea of non-Muslims aiding them during natural disasters. It's the "protecting us from people trying to kill us" thing that's more embarrassing)

Much of the Islamic world long saw "The West" as either a competitor or occupier. The US was not seen this way as much until maybe the 1950s, but the British and the French did rule large parts of the Muslim world. Afghanistan was a British protectorate I believe. So they're suspicious of our motives.

***

That said I think some here are too sympathetic to them. We are not "forcing our ways on them" as much as some of you need to believe. Chapter 1 of the Afghanistan Constitution states

Article One
Ch. 1. Art. 1
Afghanistan is an Islamic Republic, independent, unitary and indivisible state.

Article Two
Ch. 1, Art. 2
The religion of the state of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam.
Followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the provisions of law.

Article Three
Ch. 1, Art. 3

In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam.

This is pretty far from making their system "just like ours."

Last edited by Thomas R.; 02-26-2012 at 01:28 PM..

 
Old 02-26-2012, 01:47 PM
 
2,079 posts, read 1,410,637 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
They are a mountainous people. I'm descended from mountain people myself and mountainous cultures are sometimes a bit isolationist and wary of "foreigners." At least my ancestors were at times and before the Communists came in the 1970s Afghanistan had a history of being non-aligned.
The mountains, like any difficult topography (jungle, desert, outlying islands) make it hard for modern civilization and government authority to creep in. People who live in the mountains often feel removed from society and organize along family lines (clans) or geographical regions (tribes) for immediate protection and economy.


Quote:
Much of the Islamic world feels that they should be self-sufficient. That non-Muslims helping them, including less arguable cases of "help" like the troops in the 1990s protecting Bosnian Muslims from Serbs, is embarrassing. It's simply a reminder they're weak or feel weak.
Islam gains its own legitimacy through its conquests, conversions, prosperity and overall success. The fact is that Islam feels attacked in all regions of the world by both the West and secular forces like communism/China. It's lashing out to preserve its own legitimacy. As to the balkans that's neither here nor there. Most Muslims realize that Americans/Europeans intervened for their own interests and not to help any Muslims in the region.
 
Old 02-26-2012, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
14,367 posts, read 11,896,122 times
Reputation: 13104
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
How would you feel if they came here and tried to force their way of thinking on us?
They are backward, uncivilized and primitive, but we are all raised to conform to the society we are born into.
That's what they do and then we are stuck here in USA with sympathizers who will choose any side they possibly can, just so they don't agree with USA.

You think they will just stay away from us and mind their own business if we don't do anything to them? Those people are sick, and they want nothing more than the entire world to be controlled by their religion.

It must be so terrible for them to actually have a freedom, new infrastructure and a country that might actually be able to function. That country was trash before we came, and is still trash, but at least it is better on its way.
 
Old 02-26-2012, 03:23 PM
 
Location: American Expat
2,104 posts, read 2,141,119 times
Reputation: 1756
Because they are very poor, very traditional, very religious. That's your answer.
 
Old 02-26-2012, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,741 posts, read 36,383,228 times
Reputation: 28630
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
That's what they do and then we are stuck here in USA with sympathizers who will choose any side they possibly can, just so they don't agree with USA.
.
So there are only two positions that can be taken:
1. Agree with you that the USA's foreign policy is correct and positive and perfect, or
2. Be intentionally contrarian and dedicated to opposing the USA no matter what.

In other words, you discount the possibility that there are any intelligent people who use logic and analysis and historical data, and think through their position on these issues.
 
Old 02-26-2012, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
1,734 posts, read 1,219,484 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Oh, good, another virulent hate thread.

There are two sides in Afghanistan, and the Americans are only helping one side. Does that make anything clearer?

The side that doesn't think we are there to "help" them is the side that doesn't want the importation of American-style pornography and alcoholism and teen-age pregnancy and Big Macs in their country, which, right or wrong, is still their country and just wanting to mind their own business. The Afghans are getting sick and tired, after a thousand years, of always having to kill the Arabs and the Mongols and the Persians and the Turks and the British and the Russians and the Americans who keep coming in and telling them how to run their own society. To them, foreign invaders are all the same, and there is only one way to deal with them. Nobody has succeeded yet, and the American's won't, either.

The Russians ran roughshod over them for decades, and the Americans were too chicken to even send the Russians a strongly-worded diplomatic note. But now that there is nobody there who has real guns and can fight back against bullies, the big brave Americans can just sweep in and replace the Russians, and how dare they fight back and hurt one of our little soldier boys.
You give them too much credit. Perhaps you should read Charlie Wilson's war and his attempts and success at befriending the Afghans, teaching them how to fight the soviets with billions of covert US aid through the CiA. You should also read how, precisely, the Afghans treat each other. They are tribal and hold grudges forever much like the Balkan states. They are NOT united and even prior to our covert actions and success to derail the soviet union in the 80's we were well thought of in the 50's and '60's when we built dams and power substaions for them

In short, they are not as afraid of our porn, alcohol and western ways as they are with messing with the natural tribal order of things. It appears the Afghans can be bought. And we proved it. Through Charlie Wilson, we were able to finally get them the stinger missile which until then, was the dream of every afghan troop armed with an Enfield rifle or perhaps, an AK 47. They didn't always have that weaponry. We bought it for them. The stinger, if you recall, was/is capable of downing a Hind helicopter. A brutish vehicle that can withstand great punishment from small arms and carry upwards of 100 rockets. Enough to wipe out most colums and companies of troops.

That in turn, forced Soviet air operations to prosecute their war at 10,000 feet, give or take, to avoid the infamous US stinger. They were no longer as effective in pursuit, or defense of their own columns and the afghans began to have a field day with them. Helicopters are not nearly as combat effective at such heights. Pilots were spending too much time avoiding a shoot down than fighting. Beat the swiss made oerkilons...too big and too hard to haul in ammo. Stinger is shoulder fired and almost any afghan can operate one. 5 years later and the soviets called it quits. According to the book, whenever they caught a soviet alive, they would basically torture him, fornicate with him and THEN kill him.

No, i don't think "morals" were anywhere near the top of their list. Revenge was. They do this to tribes they don't like, foreigners are behind that. But, they WILL fight as the last 30 years have proven.

As much as most of us despise Hollywood antics and political positioning, Afghani's are more concerned about safety, their way of life, and their poppy fields which ARE the world's heroin supply...legit or otherwise.

Put your tampon in. The US is only thought of in a dismal fashion whenever we kill them accidentally in the name of peace or, burn their equvalent of the bible. Even with the 7 recent deaths, MOST afhghani protests ended PEACEFULLY even though only ONE line regarding that fact was included in the article of today's WSJ. Most of Afghanistan would welcome peace in any form so long as those who provide it let them go back to the tribal way of things.

Now THAT you could argue should/would be the basis of a debate regarding whether or not, we should be there at all. We really aren't as bad as those in Hollywood might sniff from a limousine. We, as a country really do try to help people and I have yet to meet the Marine who is holding down an Afghani and shoving alcohol down his/her throat or, dropping porn DVD's off as souvenirs? I am quite confident they have and continue to have access to such items for a long, long time.....way prior to our arrival.

As far as your crack on our soldiers, I am willing most would rather be here sticking a boot up your rear while shoving a copy of a few good men in your hands so you too can learn to appreciate the comfort they provide you while spending less time critisizing the way in which they provide it?

Last edited by Caleb Longstreet; 02-26-2012 at 05:00 PM..
 
Old 02-26-2012, 05:02 PM
 
2,079 posts, read 1,410,637 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
You give them too much credit. Perhaps you should read Charlie Wilson's war and his attempts and success at befriending the Afghans, teaching them how to fight the soviets with billions of covert US aid through the CiA. You should also read how, precisely, the Afghans treat each other. They are tribal and hold grudges forever much like Balkan states. They are NOT united and even prior to our covert actions and success to derail the soviet union in the 80's we were well thought of in the 50's and '60's when we built dams and power substaions for them
There is one important difference between Afghan tribalism and that of the Balkans (read: Serbs, Slavic Muslims and Albanians) and that's while Afghanistan is home to multiple ethnic groups and while these ethnic groups tend to align neatly with certain tribes, all of them feel to be a part of one Afghan nation. So the struggle of Afghanistan is the struggle of the various tribes to dominate each other and rule the nation. Whereas in the balkans, the tribes do not feel they are apart of the same nation and the struggle in the ex Yugoslavia was about carving out their own ethnically pure states. This is why peace was brought easily to Yugoslavia, once these people were separated due to war and ethnic cleansing, they stopped fighting whereas fighting continues in Afghanistan because their tribes do not want to separate but dominate.

There is also the outsider influence, everyone from China, Russia, Pakistan and the USA keep flooding that region with money and weapons as we carry out our own proxy wars in that region. Afghanistan was more or less peaceful for decades before outsiders started to meddle.
 
Old 02-27-2012, 12:29 AM
 
Location: The Midst of Insanity
3,225 posts, read 4,020,226 times
Reputation: 3088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post
I totally agree...

Since when is helping a nation build roads, bridges, schools, hospitals, power plants, logistics network...satellite, running water, sewer plants...

Since when is that bad??

And 'Don't know what to put here' is totally correct...no one is trying to convert the people of Afganistan to Christainity...at least no one associated with government sponsored missions...

Now what private, induvisual churches do, is their business, and they face much risk in doing so...and some pay with their lives...
Because the U.S isn't in Afghanistan for those reasons, and everybody knows it.
I'm not defending Afghan culture or anything, but the U.S only has it's own interests in mind with this, as with all other occupations.
 
Old 02-27-2012, 12:38 AM
 
Location: The Midst of Insanity
3,225 posts, read 4,020,226 times
Reputation: 3088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Much of the Islamic world feels that they should be self-sufficient. That non-Muslims helping them, including less arguable cases of "help" like the troops in the 1990s protecting Bosnian Muslims from Serbs, is embarrassing. It's simply a reminder they're weak or feel weak. (I almost listed tsunami relief, but I think practically all Muslims accept the idea of non-Muslims aiding them during natural disasters. It's the "protecting us from people trying to kill us" thing that's more embarrassing)
In the case of the Balkans and Yugoslav wars, wasn't that more because of U.N non-intervention policies?
 
Old 02-27-2012, 12:49 AM
 
8,132 posts, read 2,843,883 times
Reputation: 5884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
....an apology has been given...
Which means NOTHING!!! (Anyone who thinks he meant is IS SOLELY UNINFORMED.. He is just trying to make himself look good)
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