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Old 09-30-2012, 11:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Before coming to Japan (or Northeast Asia for that matter). I always grew up with the stereotype/assumption that Japanese, Korean, Chinese...were just very very WISE. Like they held the wisdom of the ages, and these exotic things of manipulating Qi within martial arts, plus a gentle Buddhist nature, etc. They just seemed wise, insightful, and like a person could really learn A LOT from them.

When I moved to Korea, I found that to not be the case at all. It was very hectic, had a strong sense of extremely conservative confucianism thinking, heavy consumptionism, and a stronger interest in christianity than buddhism.

Japan still retains more buddhism, etc. More traditional values and such. However, the younger generation of Japanese people don't really have much to share about that. They just follow what has been taught for generations, without really having much insight at all into why, etc.
That's interesting; I've lived here for about 18 years and, and except for the prevalence of Christianity (though there is a significant minority here), your description of Korea is exactly what the REAL Japan is like. Concerning Buddhism, modern Japan is very much agnostic/atheistic, though like many other things, they're very contradictory regarding religion. I don't know how much time you've spent in Japan, but most foreigners who spend at least a year or two living in the country come to realize that the ideal stereotypes about Japan are either totally exaggerated or complete nonsense (which is also true of some of the negative ones, as well). That's just my experience.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:41 AM
 
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I love Japan because its pleasing to all five senses. I'm also familiar with the culture being half-Japanese and visiting there from my childhood, so its like my 2nd home. I wish I could live there again.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:36 AM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by percynjpn View Post
That's interesting; I've lived here for about 18 years and, and except for the prevalence of Christianity (though there is a significant minority here), your description of Korea is exactly what the REAL Japan is like. Concerning Buddhism, modern Japan is very much agnostic/atheistic, though like many other things, they're very contradictory regarding religion. I don't know how much time you've spent in Japan, but most foreigners who spend at least a year or two living in the country come to realize that the ideal stereotypes about Japan are either totally exaggerated or complete nonsense (which is also true of some of the negative ones, as well). That's just my experience.
I assume you're referring to this sentence: "When I moved to Korea, I found that to not be the case at all. It was very hectic, had a strong sense of extremely conservative confucianism thinking, heavy consumptionism, and a stronger interest in christianity than buddhism."

Japan has the consumptionism and sort of hectic. I found Korea much more hectic though. I didn't find Japan to have that much of confucianism structure anywhere near as strong as Korea though. I guess we both agree that the christian religions aren't that strong in Japan at all, whereas in Korea they are.

So, I guess the only one left for me to expand on, is the confucianism. Yeah, Japan has a little bit of it, but nowhere near the level of Korea. In Korea, it really dictates all things, and is immensily in overdrive. I see it in Japan a little bit, but nowhere near the level of Korea.

For example, in Korea, pretty much ANY OLDER MAN will lecture any female and anyone younger on and on and on and on and on at anytime about anything. Everyone younger and/or female just has to nod their head and bow back to them, agreeing 100% to every word, all the time. Stuff like that. I see bowing and respect in Japan, but most Japanese men seem pretty kind and nice and sweet people. Korean old men put everyone on edge all the time. Just NOT pleasant people to be around, whatsoever. That kind of Confucianism seems to go over in Korea in a major way.

(I've been in Japan about 4 1/2 years now, and I was living in South Korea for about 8 years).
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:01 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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I'm guessing China has less of that Confucian ethic because of Communism, which supposedly made everyone more equal.

I wonder, Tiger Beer, if you think China is more gender-equal than Japan or Korea? What about Russia? I mean in China and Vietnam for instance I saw women doing a lot of heavy lifting and construction work (in Malaysia too actually a bit), which is rare enough here in Australia. To me, having some exposure to Chinese culture, it just seems very matriarchal with strong females. I just get the impression that the patriarchal aspect of Confucianism sort of went away as Communism rose, although the aspects like community harmony were emphasized.

Someone on here said that Taiwan is also very socially conservative, which puzzled me since I thought it was very liberal. Also on things like gay rights.etc. How did it compare to the PRC iyo?
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I'm guessing China has less of that Confucian ethic because of Communism, which supposedly made everyone more equal.

I wonder, Tiger Beer, if you think China is more gender-equal than Japan or Korea? What about Russia? I mean in China and Vietnam for instance I saw women doing a lot of heavy lifting and construction work (in Malaysia too actually a bit), which is rare enough here in Australia. To me, having some exposure to Chinese culture, it just seems very matriarchal with strong females. I just get the impression that the patriarchal aspect of Confucianism sort of went away as Communism rose, although the aspects like community harmony were emphasized.

Someone on here said that Taiwan is also very socially conservative, which puzzled me since I thought it was very liberal. Also on things like gay rights.etc. How did it compare to the PRC iyo?
Confucianism is more of a philosophy. So, it's still certainly there in China, despite communism. Not really religious dogma at all.

China is NOT very gender equal at all. But, compared to Japan or Korea, it's slightly not AS bad. There is a huge rumor going on around Korea, that Chinese men actually help with dishes, and household tasks. I don't know if that's true or not, but Koreans often mention that when gender issues comes up in a class. It's simply not done by Korean men whatsoever. They're all bad with gender equality, but these seems to be a concensus that China isn't AS bad. Still bad though.

I'm not sure about Russia. I never lived there. I don't think it has a good reputation, but not sure comparitively. It seemed extremely male-oriented though.

Regarding gay rights, it's all fairly bad in northeast Asia. None of them really accept that. Nowhere in Asia is really 'liberal' as we'd define it in Europe, Australia, North America. But Southeast Asia is more tolerant of gays in that sense. Taiwan would be classified as part of Northeast Asia.

Last edited by Tiger Beer; 10-01-2012 at 04:56 AM..
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:37 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Confucianism is more of a philosophy. So, it's still certainly there in China, despite communism. Not really religious dogma at all.

China is NOT very gender equal at all. But, compared to Japan or Korea, it's slightly not AS bad. There is a huge rumor going on around Korea, that Chinese men actually help with dishes, and household tasks. I don't know if that's true or not, but Koreans often mention that when gender issues comes up in a class. It's simply not done by Korean men whatsoever. They're all bad with gender equality, but these seems to be a concensus that China isn't AS bad. Still bad though.

I'm not sure about Russia. I never lived there. I don't think it has a good reputation, but not sure comparitively. It seemed extremely male-oriented though.

Regarding gay rights, it's all fairly bad in northeast Asia. None of them really accept that. Nowhere in Asia is really 'liberal' as we'd define it in Europe, Australia, North America. But Southeast Asia is more tolerant of gays in that sense. Taiwan would be classified as part of Northeast Asia.
Interesting, I'm probably going to Taiwan soon so it'll be interesting to compare. I've met some Taiwanese people and they seem pretty friendly. So I guess in some ways Korea is like America in the 1950s? Except for the fact that women work AND do the household chores? I heard Japan is one of the most middle class countries in the world, and I'm assuming that hired help: maids, housekeepers.etc, which are common in SE Asia among the middle and upper classes, are only for the very rich in Korea and Japan. So you're saying the percentage of housewives is higher in Korea and Japan than the West?

I'm not sure SE Asia is really more tolerant of gays than NE Asia. Of course there's Indonesia, a Muslim nation, where 1/3 or so of Southeast Asians live. While technically not illegal it's not exactly all that tolerated. Malaysia has sodomy laws and in Singapore homosexuality is illegal. Some people think Thailand is really liberal but a lot of Thais still traditional attitudes. I will say they are tolerant though. But in NE Asia, I don't know if violence against homosexuals is really common either. They more tolerate rather than accept/embrace it. Vietnam is culturally much like China, though I don't know what the general attitude towards homosexuality is I don't imagine it being much more liberal. Hong Kong and Taiwan are probably the most open towards homosexuals, there are actually some 'out' Hong Kong film stars and it didn't ruin their careers.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Interesting, I'm probably going to Taiwan soon so it'll be interesting to compare. I've met some Taiwanese people and they seem pretty friendly. So I guess in some ways Korea is like America in the 1950s? Except for the fact that women work AND do the household chores? I heard Japan is one of the most middle class countries in the world, and I'm assuming that hired help: maids, housekeepers.etc, which are common in SE Asia among the middle and upper classes, are only for the very rich in Korea and Japan. So you're saying the percentage of housewives is higher in Korea and Japan than the West?

I'm not sure SE Asia is really more tolerant of gays than NE Asia. Of course there's Indonesia, a Muslim nation, where 1/3 or so of Southeast Asians live. While technically not illegal it's not exactly all that tolerated. Malaysia has sodomy laws and in Singapore homosexuality is illegal. Some people think Thailand is really liberal but a lot of Thais still traditional attitudes. I will say they are tolerant though. But in NE Asia, I don't know if violence against homosexuals is really common either. They more tolerate rather than accept/embrace it. Vietnam is culturally much like China, though I don't know what the general attitude towards homosexuality is I don't imagine it being much more liberal. Hong Kong and Taiwan are probably the most open towards homosexuals, there are actually some 'out' Hong Kong film stars and it didn't ruin their careers.
Yeah, Japan, hired help of maids, housekeepers doesn't really exist at all.

Housewives, yeah, they are very common in Japan and Korea. Women just plan to be that. The work world is working against them to remain in the workworld. Plenty of ads give age restrictions for women as well. Must be under 30, etc.

Gays. All I know is when Ive been to Indonesia, I've seen gays walking around in public, and even hitting on foreigners and everyone else in just completely normal bars. I've gone to a number of expat bars in Indonesia, and had gay or ladyboy Indonesians make their come-ons, and all that.

Whereas up in Korea or Japan, they would have gay bars for that, and you'd seldom ever see gays hitting on regular guys in regular bars. You'd almost never see transvestive Koreans or Japanese walking around the malls or riding the subways and such. That's also unheard of in Vietnam. I don't think that would happen in CHina or Taiwan either.

However, in the Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, it's fairly common to see all kinds of different gender-orientation everywhere. Granted, I don't think the most conservative of any of those countries would like it, but it's easy enough to see when out and about.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:33 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Yeah, Japan, hired help of maids, housekeepers doesn't really exist at all.

Housewives, yeah, they are very common in Japan and Korea. Women just plan to be that. The work world is working against them to remain in the workworld. Plenty of ads give age restrictions for women as well. Must be under 30, etc.

Gays. All I know is when Ive been to Indonesia, I've seen gays walking around in public, and even hitting on foreigners and everyone else in just completely normal bars. I've gone to a number of expat bars in Indonesia, and had gay or ladyboy Indonesians make their come-ons, and all that.

Whereas up in Korea or Japan, they would have gay bars for that, and you'd seldom ever see gays hitting on regular guys in regular bars. You'd almost never see transvestive Koreans or Japanese walking around the malls or riding the subways and such. That's also unheard of in Vietnam. I don't think that would happen in CHina or Taiwan either.

However, in the Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, it's fairly common to see all kinds of different gender-orientation everywhere. Granted, I don't think the most conservative of any of those countries would like it, but it's easy enough to see when out and about.
Is the whole culture of employees being basically married to their companies alive and well in Japan? I can see how that could help to dissuade women from working in the company, especially when they have families. It's interesting that most women plan to be housewives, not what I expected at all. In Singapore, as I'm sure you might know, nearly all women these days will work full time. Among the professional/middle class at least. That's largely why they have maids, even when the baby is very young, they need the double income to send their kids to the best school, to go to the best country club, buy the best condo.etc. It's very workaholic too like Japan but different in that way.

Were you in Bali and large urban areas of Java? Remember those are the most tolerant parts of Indonesia. A place like Aceh is almost like Saudi Arabia, they have Sharia law. Bali especially has a lot of those rent boys and has quite a large gay scene. The Phils probably too but because of the sex scene catering to Western tourists. They probably congregate in these precincts. Outside that i do wonder if it's that accepted.

In NE Asia, due to fact there's less of a sex industry catering to Westerners, it probably exists but you just don't see it. They're also not the most demonstrative people, but it doesn't mean that they face hostility.etc. Laws protecting homosexual rights etc aren't exactly developed ANYWHERE in Asia.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Macao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Is the whole culture of employees being basically married to their companies alive and well in Japan? I can see how that could help to dissuade women from working in the company, especially when they have families. It's interesting that most women plan to be housewives, not what I expected at all. In Singapore, as I'm sure you might know, nearly all women these days will work full time. Among the professional/middle class at least. That's largely why they have maids, even when the baby is very young, they need the double income to send their kids to the best school, to go to the best country club, buy the best condo.etc. It's very workaholic too like Japan but different in that way.

Were you in Bali and large urban areas of Java? Remember those are the most tolerant parts of Indonesia. A place like Aceh is almost like Saudi Arabia, they have Sharia law. Bali especially has a lot of those rent boys and has quite a large gay scene. The Phils probably too but because of the sex scene catering to Western tourists. They probably congregate in these precincts. Outside that i do wonder if it's that accepted.

In NE Asia, due to fact there's less of a sex industry catering to Westerners, it probably exists but you just don't see it. They're also not the most demonstrative people, but it doesn't mean that they face hostility.etc. Laws protecting homosexual rights etc aren't exactly developed ANYWHERE in Asia.
In Japan/Korea, it's just assumed the women will stay at home. They take care of the house and kids. In Japan, the gov't PAYS them to be housewives. Additionally, in both culture, the oldest son's wife absolutely MUST take care of the husband's parents. They move into the house of the first born son.

Plus, in Japan, frustratingly so, there are many tasks that only the housewife can do. Most banks close at insanely early hours, and closed for the weekend. It's assumed that someone is available to do those tasks.

Indonesia. I was in large urban areas of Java and in Bali. I guess its stark contrast to Japan/Korea/etc. where you just don't see gay men or transgender men unless going specifically to that kind of bar, etc.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:44 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
In Japan/Korea, it's just assumed the women will stay at home. They take care of the house and kids. In Japan, the gov't PAYS them to be housewives. Additionally, in both culture, the oldest son's wife absolutely MUST take care of the husband's parents. They move into the house of the first born son.

Plus, in Japan, frustratingly so, there are many tasks that only the housewife can do. Most banks close at insanely early hours, and closed for the weekend. It's assumed that someone is available to do those tasks.

Indonesia. I was in large urban areas of Java and in Bali. I guess its stark contrast to Japan/Korea/etc. where you just don't see gay men or transgender men unless going specifically to that kind of bar, etc.
Japan is a lot more traditional than I thought.

Would you say Italy is more or less that way than Japan? I mean do women work as housewives and look after the grandparents to the same extent? In terms of being traditional I see Italy is being up there in Europe.

Then again, if you went to Copenhagen or Vancouver it's likely you might not see a lot of gay couples because they don't always display affection publicly. Doesn't mean they're not very tolerant.
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